Entertainment
Maury Makes Karamo Cry | On Par With Maury Povich
In this heartfelt episode of 'On Par With Maury Povich,' Maury sits down with talk show host Karamo Brown, who opens up about his journey in television and the emotional challenges he faced ...
Maury Makes Karamo Cry | On Par With Maury Povich
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Interactive Transcript
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Welcome to On-PAR with Murray Povitch.
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Welcome back everybody to On-PAR with me, Murray Povitch.
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Now today's guest, he's just not a cultural force.
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He's somebody I've had the privilege of watching grow into one of the most important voices
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in television.
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Now when I stepped away three years ago from my talk show, Karamo Brown was stepping
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into the arena with his own talk show.
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And over the past few years, he is now celebrating his fourth season with his talk show.
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And I've been cheering him on from the sidelines.
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Watching with pride, he has built a show rooted in compassion and honesty and connection.
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From making history as the first openly gay African-American man on reality TV, to becoming
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the heart of queer eye to now running his own successful talk show, Karamo has carried
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the torch forward in powerful ways.
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I couldn't be prouder of him and I'm so happy he's here today.
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Nice to see you my friend.
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I've never liked this.
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No one, I don't know why he's got a motion of.
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He's doing.
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I never get emotional.
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I literally make other people laugh.
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Oh no, come on.
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Oh my gosh, I don't know what that is, Murray.
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I don't know what that is.
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I do know what it is.
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It's because I respect you so much.
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And like, they hear you introducing me like that just got me.
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Well, you've done so great.
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And let me tell you, I was the disting.
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I love it.
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I feel like Barbara Walters.
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I got my test crying.
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This is terrific.
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The reason why I'm so proud of you, I'll give you the statistics.
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I was on the air 31 years doing date on talk.
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In that time frame, 75 talk shows went into the graveyard.
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Oh wow.
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They couldn't make it.
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They couldn't make it past the first or second year.
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I mean, some of them just died halfway through the first year.
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And so for you to be in your fourth year, I'm telling you, this is big stuff.
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Thank you.
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I appreciate that.
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Wow.
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Well, I mean, a lot of it is, you know, some of the things you told me when I first was
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testing on your stage, you were like the authentic.
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You told me, listen, be surprised, be engaged, be in the moment, and you told me to have
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a lot of fun.
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And I take all of your words and really apply them.
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And like, you know, the audience is rocking with me and we're going on.
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So I appreciate it.
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Well, the one thing you did and what I told you was when you read the result of DNA or
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live detectors and all that, you don't want to know the result.
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You want to be just like the audience, the guest.
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And so therefore you didn't want to know things they didn't.
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By the way, I hate you for giving me that advice.
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And I hate you for me.
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Because you wanted to know I'm nosy as hell.
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And every time I get to emble over my hand, I'm like, I need to know what's in here.
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But I'm like, okay, more so don't look.
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Don't look.
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And but it's like, sometimes I'm like, I want to know ahead of time.
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That adds to your authenticity.
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You're right.
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It does.
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And that's, and that's to me when it comes to talk, particularly daytime talk, you're so
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right on about authenticity.
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You just have to be that way.
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Now, Query-I.
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Yeah.
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Last year.
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Yes.
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It's the last year of Query-I.
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How do you feel about that after 10 years?
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I feel so happy.
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Happy.
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Happy.
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Why?
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You know, it was monumental.
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And it changed me as a host, as a man, as a father.
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It opened up so many dreams that I had of becoming an author.
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It led me to being able to get my own daytime talk show.
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But I'm ready for what's next.
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And this is what's next.
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And I'm ready to just do this full time, 100% the time.
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You know, I spend, for the past three years, I've been spending six months out of the
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year doing Query-I and then trying to jump into this.
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And that's a lot of emotions to deal with.
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And I just want to just be right here steady.
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And if I can be also a little transparent for three years, I had a bit of a,
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identity crisis because I had so many people telling me,
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Query-I is one way.
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So you got to act this way.
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And then I would come over here on my daytime talk show and they would say,
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you got to act this way.
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And I was like, I'm at the same wherever I go.
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Exactly.
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And, but you know, now they get to shut up over there.
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And I get to just be me here because I love this.
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My dream since I was nine years old was it for a daytime talk show.
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You know, and so I'm never going to miss this stuff.
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But I'm never going to not be thankful for this opportunity and be sitting in this
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seat.
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It's interesting though.
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You got a little miffed when they announced the ending of the show because
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your colleague, Bobby Burke, all of a sudden the same day or the next day
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announces he's doing a new show on HDTV.
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And you got a little, no, no, I don't get it.
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Oh, no, come on now.
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I'm telling the truth.
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Where did you, come on.
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Where did he and I actually best friends?
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So we talk every single day and when this happened, I, I said to him, I was like, Oh,
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girl, you a shady, you a shady girl.
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And so, but it was in fun just and then he said the fun just and then, you know, reporters
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are the real shady people and they took it in round with it and turned to something.
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I'm so happy for that man all his success.
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I'm his biggest fan and I root for him every single day.
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But wait a minute.
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You didn't like the fact that he announced it the day of or after?
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No, I think it's great.
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And that's when you want.
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I was like, I was like, oh, you be a little shady.
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I'm a shady girl.
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All right.
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Okay.
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All right.
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So when you started the talk show, yeah, what do you think was the hardest thing to do?
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I think the hardest thing for me to do was to get the voices out of my head who were telling
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me who I was and what I was.
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And if I, you know, you know, you know, I know there's the people outside because if I
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could be honest with you, I kind of just said it about like where I ending in this.
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You know, most people compare me to you.
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And you know, when you're coming into something, you deserve better than that.
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No, no, I loved it now.
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I love it.
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But in the moment, the comparison was the second way my happiness.
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And I always try to teach people, you know, comparison is the thief of joy.
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And as everyone told me like, you know, like, oh, you're more, you're more, and I was
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like, no, I mean, I mean, we have similarities.
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We have, you know, I do DNA tests.
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I'm so honored to be on his stage.
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I'm so honored to be all these things, but I'm me.
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And so for a long time, I hated it that people kept saying you're more, it was like, they
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even called me Maurice.
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Oh, really?
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And I was like, I'm like, my name's Carambo, but you know what I mean?
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But then a switch flipped.
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And I was sitting in my room and my best friend who's tray, my best friend tray, we were
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talking.
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And I was like, I was like, I'm more he's the greatest.
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And I was like, I just love this man.
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He taught me so much.
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And Tray was like, watch, start saying that instead of like, you're upset about the
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comparison.
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And I was like, you're right.
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I am being compared to the greatest.
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And I do call you the greatest.
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You have outdone Oprah.
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You have outdone.
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No, you have to get your flowers.
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You are the greatest.
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What you have accomplished from beginning to end.
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I am so, I'm like, I'm sitting next to Michael Jordan of talk.
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Well, it isn't true.
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I've sat next to Michael Jordan.
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Trust me.
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I'm no Michael Jordan.
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You are to me.
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You are to me.
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You are.
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I'm talking to Michael Woods to me.
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You are Michael Jordan to me.
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You are the greatest.
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And when I clicked on me that if people want to compare me to the greatest, I'm going
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to be thankful every single day.
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And now when someone says you're like, Mori, I said, you damn right.
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I pray that it can be as good as I can do it.
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Sure.
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Yeah, I say I pray I can be as good as you.
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I pray that I can have a career that you had.
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I pray that I can have people who respect me and love me around the world.
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I pray that I can do everything you did.
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Well, because you're awesome.
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Well, I just want to give you your flowers.
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Well, you're entitled because Parade Magazine named you a changemaker of the year and this
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year.
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And so that's pretty good.
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Appreciate it.
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You know, I'm trying to change a little thing or two.
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You know, we're trying.
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You know, okay.
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And now here's the thing.
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Yeah.
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Personally, you're having a big change in your life.
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You and your significant other broke up.
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Oh, yeah.
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You got some friends?
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Listen, I'll take an old man.
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You got older man like Connie's the best matchmaker in the world.
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Tell Connie, I will go from age 40 to 80.
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Okay.
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Listen, I'm down.
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If she got your friends.
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So why are you smiling?
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Why are you smiling about this?
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Let me tell you something.
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It was four years.
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It was four years.
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It was four years.
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It was four years.
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Yes.
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And we broke up and we're still friends.
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But let me tell you something.
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What I try to teach my guess is when you know that you are no longer growing in a relationship,
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it's time to go.
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How do you know that?
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Are you smiling the same?
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Are they pushing you?
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Are they encouraging for you to go to a next level?
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Are you laughing the same?
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Do your friends and family enjoy how you are when you're around them?
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And I started to look at these things of my own personal self and also like what the
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people I trust were looking at.
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And I was like, oh, we're not growing anymore.
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We hit a plateau where we're friends, but there's nothing more.
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And how long into the four years did you know that?
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Three, the year three.
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And the last year I said, I'm going to see if we can make the choices to grow together.
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And because I'm believe like, let's call a spade a spade, let's talk about it.
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And I said, we're not growing anymore.
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Can we do this, this and this together on the same page?
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And we tried for a little bit.
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But then we realized it wasn't working.
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And so at that point, instead of getting mad and arguing and start doing stuff that was
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going to cause us not to be friends, I said, so let's start talking about how we can
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grow apart.
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And I do this in relation with all the time.
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I tell people, let's grow apart.
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Well, as I remember, I think I read the previous relationship was like 10 years.
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10 years, yeah.
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We weren't growing.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, once, you know, we stopped motivating.
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We, you know, like the intimacy starts to go.
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That's when you have to, I don't know why we think that relationships, we have to stay
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in them if they're unhealthy.
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And I'm not talking give up because I believe that you should put in the work.
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But both people have to equally put in the work.
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And when they're not doing that, instead of holding on to something that's not keeping
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you motivated and growing, you got to get out of there.
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And so 10 years for, listen, the only person I'm worried about is the foot of four years I've
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been.
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Do you feel free?
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Do you feel free?
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I feel free.
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I feel happy.
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And the growth that I wasn't getting there, I'm getting on my own.
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And that's what it's all about.
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We came in this world.
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How do you do this?
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How do you do it on your own?
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Well, you know, it's a lot of self-reflection.
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So I look at myself in the mirror and I say, where do you need to be better?
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And why did you stop being better when you're in this relationship?
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And for me, I'm a big writer.
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I write out the areas where I need to grow and I map it out.
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So what areas?
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I need to grow emotionally.
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I realized that I was helping others.
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But when it came to me, I wasn't paying attention to things that were hurting me, the areas
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that I need to heal.
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I also realized that I stopped dreaming because I was so focused on their dreams.
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And I'm a giver by nature.
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And this is how I was as a father.
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It was all about my kids.
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And I was like, I cannot give up dreaming.
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I have to dream until I'm dead.
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I have to dream.
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As long as we're alive, there's always something more where we can grow.
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And so I started dreaming again.
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I started checking my emotions and making sure I was healthy.
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And now I'm happy.
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Got new stuff.
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I was in a podcast with a more pop-in.
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Come on.
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You break up and have your breakthrough.
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That's what I'm doing.
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But why am I old school or what?
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I don't have the self-reflection.
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I don't.
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I don't know why.
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I guess maybe in this business, oh boy, in this business, for years, it was always about
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trying to make it in this business.
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How do I make it in this business?
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And then you get hired and then you get fired.
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There's an up and there's a down and all this kind of stuff.
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And I think that what the talk show did for me, it kind of gave me confidence that I've
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made it in this business.
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I've made it.
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Do you feel like you've made it?
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Well, before I answer that question, can I say something?
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I disagree.
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I think you do self-reflect.
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How do I do it?
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How do I do it?
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Because I'm mad with your success in both career and family.
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I've met your wife.
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I've seen how happy she is when she talks about you.
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I've met people who have worked with you for years and they have nothing but great things
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to say about you.
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And only a man who can say, you know what, if I have something, I have to be able to pivot,
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is a person who's self-reflects.
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I think it just becomes, it comes natural to you to pivot.
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Ah.
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That therefore you don't realize that you're taking them on to do it in the moment.
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So in other words, I don't remember when I'm doing it.
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But I'm kind of doing it.
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You do it consciously.
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You do it subconsciously.
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You do it subconsciously.
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That's possible.
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Very possible.
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And I think, and so I just say that so you can give yourself more credit of like, no, you've
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been, you've been self-reflecting and pivoting and being the best version of yourself for
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years, which is why men like me, everyone who works here who works with you can all enjoy
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and love you being here because you've always tried to be better so that we all feel great.
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That's true.
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Yeah.
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I'm always felt, ah, it's very interesting.
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Years ago Edward R. Murrow was the, you know, great newsman during World War II and
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afterwards.
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He always said, I'm no more important than if I was talking to the guy at the bar.
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And I've always thought of myself as, I'm just one of the crew.
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You know, and so therefore I guess that's why everybody, you know, most of the people on
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my staff work with me for 25, 30 years.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But you know, being this business, how many people who don't see that themselves that way,
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they see themselves bigger than everything.
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You couldn't, you know, they have what I consider this disease called big shotitis.
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Oh, I like that.
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Big shotitis.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You know, I used to, years ago when I was anchoring newscasts around the country, I would be having
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a co-anchor who might have been there longer than I have and he had been established or she
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had been a, and somehow they got their chairs higher than mine.
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Really?
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Doing the news, right?
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They would just be higher.
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Well, did they put something underneath it?
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No, they jacked them up.
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Jacked them up.
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And by the way, if you go back and look at the David Letterman show, maybe I don't think
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Carson did it, but I know let, he always sat higher.
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Yes, I do remember.
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He always sat higher.
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Right.
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Wow.
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I think that's all about the ego.
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Yeah, it is.
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It is.
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How did you deal with stuff like that?
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Because I come across people like that now.
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I, it's just, I mean, you hate it.
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But at the same time, there, but for the grace of God, go I.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And look at it.
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I'll ask it all those people.
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Yeah, well, yeah, you do.
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I tell it.
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I tell, you know, it's very interesting about that.
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I'll tell you a story about that.
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I, over the years, I made a list.
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Yeah.
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Of all the people who screwed me over, you know, managers who fired me, managers, I didn't
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get along with, managers who I didn't understand.
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And I had this list, this, this, this grudge list, that, I'll boy, somehow I'm going to get
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revenge on them.
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Every single one of them at some point were fired.
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Yeah.
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And instead of going, I felt sorry for them.
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Yes.
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What does that say?
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It's your character.
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It's who you are.
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And I think what you just displayed is such the biggest lesson that, especially for
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people who want your success to learn, is that clapping for or in, in, in, being elated
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in someone else's pain, even if they've hurt you, doesn't serve you.
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What serves you is empathy.
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And what serves you is compassion.
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And you're a great example of that.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Let's, let's talk about happy shit.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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I didn't know that you appeared in a, in a Taylor Swift video.
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I did.
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I did.
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I did.
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Taylor Swift.
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How did that happen?
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Um, she was, did you know her?
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No, I did not.
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I know her now.
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But at the time she, you know, like you know, this business, her team contacted my team.
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I said, we want, you know, the guys are from Quarerite in the video.
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And they were like, we know, can you change your schedule?
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And I'm like, yeah, the biggest pops are in the world calls.
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You're going to change your schedule and do whatever the hell you want.
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And like it was the, it was the best time because, you know, like you, you, you get to
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be near greatness.
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You know, like she's a once in a lifetime artist.
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And you know, like I imagine somebody who was next to the Michaels and, you know, the
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Diana Rosses and the shares in their time.
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I got to set, sit next to them, the Dolly Parton's.
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You get to sit next to somebody who you know has changed the game forever.
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It's similar to what I'm doing right now.
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And so it was amazing.
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And how was she?
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The best person on face of earth.
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You know, I've heard that.
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The nicest, I've heard the nicest, nicest kind.
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And I'm a, so I'm a observer.
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My Scorpio traders, I like to watch people when they don't think I'm watching.
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And when you know one's looking, how do you treat that one person right there that,
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you know, someone else might say their job is insignificant.
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No one's job is insignificant.
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And that's the person I want to see how you're going to treat them.
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And when I tell you she spoke to every single person, hugged every person, was had a kind
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word, made sure they were okay.
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And that has been consistent since every time I've met her and it's been around her,
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consistently kind.
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But I also think it's a big part because she keeps her family around her.
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She stays grounded.
spk_0
She doesn't have that ism that you talked about, you know what I mean?
spk_0
She says.
spk_0
So you think she's happy?
spk_0
I do.
spk_0
And the fact that she's engaged.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
First of all, you know, she's had a lot of boyfriend.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
In her career.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
This is the first engagement.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And I think this is the one that's going to stick.
spk_0
I think this is one of the things.
spk_0
I got the feeling she was never going to get engaged unless she knew it was the real.
spk_0
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Which is smart.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
She's like, she paid it to, you know, and the funny part is I mean, like she actually
spk_0
even had that many.
spk_0
Like I think about how many people I've dated in my life.
spk_0
It's just that they're not public.
spk_0
You know, like, like she, well, she had like seven boyfriends and also like, she had a lot of boyfriends.
spk_0
And I'm like, well, that's it.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I mean, she can't go anywhere without, you know, without everyone knowing.
spk_0
And, you know, but like, she's a smart woman.
spk_0
She knew exactly when to do it when it was right.
spk_0
She's not going to, she's a lover, but she's also very intelligent.
spk_0
And I'm just blessed to have you to been around her and know her.
spk_0
You, you have said something and you and I are going to disagree about it.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I'll tell you why.
spk_0
You want people to choose happiness.
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
I do.
spk_0
And you disagree with that?
spk_0
Let me tell you why I disagree with it.
spk_0
I love to hear it.
spk_0
When I was 30 years old, I'm with my father and my father says, what's the matter?
spk_0
Something's wrong.
spk_0
I said, I'm not happy.
spk_0
And my father said, I'm 30.
spk_0
He said, the declaration of independence gave you a right to pursue happiness.
spk_0
It did not give you a right to be happy.
spk_0
That's different than what the way you look on happiness.
spk_0
You, you believe you can be happy by being happy.
spk_0
By choice?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
By choice.
spk_0
I believe you got to work on it.
spk_0
I believe you got to pursue it.
spk_0
I don't think there were that far off because my saying choose and you're saying pursue
spk_0
are the same thing because anything that you pursue, you first have to make a choice
spk_0
that you want to pursue it.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And so I think what we're doing is congruently saying, you said at 30, you're upset, you
spk_0
were happy.
spk_0
And I'm saying choose happiness.
spk_0
And then your father said, now work on it.
spk_0
And I think those two things are like important aspects of like what.
spk_0
So it doesn't automatically come.
spk_0
No, it doesn't automatically come.
spk_0
But you have to make the decision that you deserve it.
spk_0
And I don't think a lot of people, especially in this day and age, where they're on social
spk_0
media and social media is telling them that they're not enough where they're in relationships
spk_0
either intimate or with family.
spk_0
And the family or people are telling them that they don't deserve things.
spk_0
And then they start to believe these things.
spk_0
And instead of believing that they deserve to be happy, they start to believe that this
spk_0
is all it is, that this is all I'll ever get.
spk_0
And I'm saying, don't believe that.
spk_0
Choose the happiness.
spk_0
Choose yourself.
spk_0
How can you choose happiness, for instance, if you're wanting for so much just to be
spk_0
able to live a decent life every day?
spk_0
How do you choose that?
spk_0
Well, I think the reframing in that is that even when we're in moments and I grew up super
spk_0
poor, I talk about this all the time.
spk_0
We didn't have the things that a lot of people would grow up in middle class have.
spk_0
I mean, we would move out of apartments in the middle of the night.
spk_0
That was something normal.
spk_0
Because you couldn't let the landlord see you leaving in the day.
spk_0
So in the middle of the night, we're packing up boxes.
spk_0
We're moving out to get into a hotel.
spk_0
But in those moments, I would also be thinking, wow, I have my mother who loves me.
spk_0
I have this one toy that I, it was a baby blue kangaroo that would bring around everywhere.
spk_0
And that was with me.
spk_0
I was happy because he would be bouncing around and playing.
spk_0
So you're looking for the little things.
spk_0
Look for the little things.
spk_0
The reframe is that even when life is its hardest, there are things around you that you can appreciate
spk_0
that can tell you that tomorrow will be better.
spk_0
Whether it's the sun shining on you, whether it's a smile from someone, whether it's just
spk_0
one text, whether it's this cup of water that you have that says, you know, at least for
spk_0
this moment, I'm not thirsty.
spk_0
It's about appreciating the small things.
spk_0
And that was something that I learned not having in life is that as long as I focus on
spk_0
the small things, more will come because then I start to realize, oh, that's one small
spk_0
thing, that's one small thing, that's one small thing.
spk_0
There is this Instagram post that I saw when someone says, if you get a hundred likes,
spk_0
it doesn't feel like a lot.
spk_0
But have you ever seen a hundred people in a room?
spk_0
Have you ever gotten a thousand likes?
spk_0
Have you ever seen a thousand people in the room?
spk_0
So when you start to focus, you start to realize how big it is.
spk_0
It's like, I'm so crazy.
spk_0
So when I go on social media, Instagram, whatever, I don't look at the views.
spk_0
I look at the likes.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
spk_0
How many people have punched the likes?
spk_0
I've got to be like, did you?
spk_0
Yeah, I agree with you.
spk_0
You know what I mean?
spk_0
You're smart man for that.
spk_0
That's amazing.
spk_0
It's amazing.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
It's amazing what ego is all about.
spk_0
But I will tell you this.
spk_0
I am going to add from now on, mark my word.
spk_0
When someone says you choose happiness and I'm going to say, yes, choose happiness.
spk_0
But as Mori said, then go pursue it.
spk_0
I will say that for the rest of my life.
spk_0
Very nice.
spk_0
Thank you very much.
spk_0
Thank you.
spk_0
So what was it like in 2007 to find out your father and you had no idea?
spk_0
It was wild.
spk_0
I wanted you to call me.
spk_0
Yeah, I mean, because I was in my hey,
spk_0
that's exactly what you call me and say, hey, can you, that would have been the best
spk_0
if I would have been on your show.
spk_0
And then later on how to talk to you, but tell me the circumstances.
spk_0
You know, I had my best friend.
spk_0
She and I spent our childhood together and she knew I was gay.
spk_0
But she, we decided that she wanted to lose her virginity.
spk_0
And even though I was gay, it made sense.
spk_0
And this is in the 90s.
spk_0
And so she moved away.
spk_0
There was no cell phone or social media to go.
spk_0
And you just, I went about my life.
spk_0
And she went about her life.
spk_0
And then years later when my son was nine, I got this sack of papers of back child support
spk_0
for the child that I didn't know existed.
spk_0
And the beautiful part of what happened is that when I met her, I asked her why.
spk_0
And she said, I want to, one of us to have a good life.
spk_0
I wanted one of us to be able to make it.
spk_0
And it was an unselfish attempt.
spk_0
She and I actually have a series that we do call co-parenting unlocked,
spk_0
where she and I talk about how we co-parent, we give advice to people.
spk_0
And what I appreciate about that is that we could have this moment where most people would say,
spk_0
you got to hate her.
spk_0
Y'all can't get along.
spk_0
But we took it and said, you know what?
spk_0
Yes, I missed nine years.
spk_0
And I hated that.
spk_0
I missed those years.
spk_0
But my son is now 28 and I got full custody of him when he was 10.
spk_0
But not only that, you adopted his brother as well.
spk_0
Dopted his brother as well.
spk_0
Who, who, you know, you're not related to biologically.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah, you know, because he was going through some things in the family.
spk_0
And they were, they were, you know, he was, there was sexual abuse.
spk_0
And so it was easier for him to come and live with me and it was supposed to be temporary.
spk_0
And it then turned into full time custody of me having him.
spk_0
And it was the biggest blessing of my life because as a 15 year old gay boy,
spk_0
I was like, oh, family's not an option for me.
spk_0
You know, that was something that I just figured it would never happen.
spk_0
And I, to, I always wanted to be a father and I always knew that that was an important aspect
spk_0
because I knew that I had love to give, knowledge to give.
spk_0
And you know, I believe the universe is going to give you what you want.
spk_0
And it's going to find a way and it did.
spk_0
So what, what was it like when you tell them of your sexuality?
spk_0
So it, it, it, well, first my oldest son, he, I was in the real world, like you said earlier,
spk_0
and he watched me because his aunt, his aunt one day was watching.
spk_0
And was like, you know, that's your father.
spk_0
And that's how he found out about me.
spk_0
So he knew about me prior to me knowing about you.
spk_0
And he knew you were gay because you came out as gay.
spk_0
Exactly. I was in the shower with a guy.
spk_0
That's first reality.
spk_0
Black gay TV guy.
spk_0
Yeah. Yeah.
spk_0
You were the first.
spk_0
First. First.
spk_0
Did it bother you? Did, did you think about it?
spk_0
No. At the time, I was going on a real world again, drunk.
spk_0
And I was like, that was like, there was a beginning of reality shows where they like,
spk_0
you went to a house and there was liquor everywhere.
spk_0
And they were like, you know, there, there was true conflict because they were bringing in people
spk_0
of different aspects. But like, it was a sitting there to like, have a good time.
spk_0
I wasn't thinking about, you know, being the first of anything.
spk_0
But what I realized later is that the impact and now looking back and I see all these little
spk_0
gay black boys who are reality stars.
spk_0
And I'm like, yeah, I remember when, none of y'all want to be on camera.
spk_0
I remember when none of them wanted to see us on camera.
spk_0
And now I feel a little bit of pride that like I ushered in a new era of people knowing
spk_0
a lot of stories.
spk_0
And a lot of people followed you.
spk_0
Yeah. Yeah, they did.
spk_0
I mean, yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot, you know?
spk_0
Now it's no problem.
spk_0
No problem at all now.
spk_0
You know what I mean?
spk_0
And to be real, this is 2004.
spk_0
It was issues when I would try to walk into a bar or something.
spk_0
People would scatter.
spk_0
People would isolate.
spk_0
People would try to define my story.
spk_0
They would tell me that I was a, I used to get called a homo thug.
spk_0
I even know what a homo thug is.
spk_0
I'm not even a thug.
spk_0
I like, I like, I like gold necklaces.
spk_0
Like, I was like, who's calling me a thug?
spk_0
Like, well, like that was a reference because no one had ever seen a gay black man
spk_0
before.
spk_0
So their, their expression was that, OK, well, then he has to be a thug.
spk_0
He has to be these, you know, the opa mate, you know, that the term DL, big back then.
spk_0
And so because of that, everyone looked at every gay black man as on the DL or they're
spk_0
hyper this.
spk_0
And I was like, no, I'm just a 23-year-old kid who just graduated from college.
spk_0
I'm not any of those things.
spk_0
I'm just glad now that people get to see the fullness of my community.
spk_0
So when I'm doing the show, when I did the show, yeah.
spk_0
spk_0
There are two things I really did not want to get involved with.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I didn't want to do religion on the show.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And I didn't want to do politics.
spk_0
You, in the last election, you did a lot of politics.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Why?
spk_0
Well, so I don't have the option not to.
spk_0
And I'll say that.
spk_0
And I mean that in the sense that.
spk_0
Why?
spk_0
Because the issues are too important.
spk_0
They hit too close to home.
spk_0
You know, like, my parents are not from this country.
spk_0
So I'm first generation American.
spk_0
And I know what it was like for my parents trying to get jobs.
spk_0
Jamaica and Cuba.
spk_0
And I know what it's like for them to work two, three jobs.
spk_0
Like I said, we grew up poor because they were fighting every day to work and tried.
spk_0
Like, never been arrested in lives.
spk_0
Did they come here illegally?
spk_0
They came here on green cards.
spk_0
On green cards.
spk_0
So yeah, they came here on green cards.
spk_0
And my mother, my father came through a scholarship with school.
spk_0
And then brought my mother.
spk_0
But the thing is that when I see conversations about immigration, I was a child that was
spk_0
being affected by that.
spk_0
And so when I, you know, like on my daytime talk show, I'm always like, I'm most worried
spk_0
about kids.
spk_0
Because as adults, we can argue, we can have all these conversations.
spk_0
But we keep forgetting that this affects some little child who just came into this world
spk_0
and is like, why are you all doing this?
spk_0
And so when you're talking about these people and like, you know, dividing us, that hurts
spk_0
the children who are just trying to wake up and go to school and be happy.
spk_0
And then also we're talking about the rights of African Americans and, you know, police brutality.
spk_0
As a black man who's raised in two black boys, those things hit home.
spk_0
And I have to make sure that we're making sure that the people in charge are seeing us
spk_0
all equal.
spk_0
And then as a gay man, you know?
spk_0
And so like, I never have the option to stay quiet because I'm like, if I stay quiet,
spk_0
then the communities that I love and cherish the most will be deeply impacted.
spk_0
And I don't believe that God gave me this microphone just to stay quiet, you know?
spk_0
Even though our job is to listen, and those arenas I gotta talk.
spk_0
Well, it's interesting when you think about that because I can't imagine
spk_0
during my years, I didn't have it.
spk_0
I'm sure I had illegal immigrants on the show.
spk_0
I'm sure of it.
spk_0
Because, you know, they came to this country, they worked hard, they grew a family.
spk_0
And I'm sure that they were, whether it was a DNA test or a lot, how do I know what they are?
spk_0
You know what the problem is?
spk_0
Now people are trying to tell you what you are.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And that's, that's bad.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I mean, if you live a life where you're not a criminal, you're not this, you're not that.
spk_0
And all of a sudden, you might be, you know, hauled out and sent away
spk_0
because you didn't come here the right way.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I mean, it's, I mean, it's a bit terrifying.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Thank you for saying that.
spk_0
Because I know so many people who, who respect you and look up to you and see themselves in you,
spk_0
who might not have the courage to say that.
spk_0
Well, you know, I think even supporters of the administration,
spk_0
I don't think they want to see hard working.
spk_0
Well, well, mannered people thrown out of this country.
spk_0
I don't think so.
spk_0
I mean, even guys like Joe Rogan are getting upset and pissed off.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
So, I mean, but you know, the thing is, is that it takes more conversations to say,
spk_0
unfortunately, it's all blending together.
spk_0
And so, though you don't want to see hard working, that definition gets, it becomes a slippery slope
spk_0
and then someone says, well, that person is not.
spk_0
And then all of a sudden, now, everyone's lumped together.
spk_0
And I think what we need to be doing in this country is pursuing that
spk_0
equality and happiness for all.
spk_0
You know, it's very interesting about being lumped together.
spk_0
spk_0
People want to lump Taylor Swift and Beyonce together.
spk_0
How about that?
spk_0
See, this is why he's the master.
spk_0
When you can go from politics to Beyonce and Taylor Swift,
spk_0
this is a masterclass.
spk_0
I need you to understand.
spk_0
You'll see that masterclass.
spk_0
I just jumped off for what you were talking about.
spk_0
That's a Bible Watter's level, boy, poem is level.
spk_0
That is a masterclass.
spk_0
Let me say this is what I was talking about.
spk_0
Like, yeah, yeah, listen.
spk_0
You get up when people try to do that.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah, why compared these two amazing women?
spk_0
Like, don't do it.
spk_0
Like, don't do it.
spk_0
They have two different styles.
spk_0
You know what I mean?
spk_0
Like, two different styles.
spk_0
They're both great.
spk_0
They're both great.
spk_0
And let people be in their greatness.
spk_0
You know, people always feel like they got to put something in a box.
spk_0
Like, this fits, that's this is this.
spk_0
That's that.
spk_0
It's like, why can't that just be?
spk_0
That is this and that is that.
spk_0
And that's okay that they're different.
spk_0
You know, their level of greatness can be the same.
spk_0
Exactly.
spk_0
Level greatness can be the same.
spk_0
But they're two different people.
spk_0
And have two different genres.
spk_0
Do you know her?
spk_0
Beyonce?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
So Beyonce and I used to hang out on the playground
spk_0
when we were three years old.
spk_0
She doesn't remember this.
spk_0
But I remember that, you know, she's my best friend.
spk_0
And I'm waiting for her to see me one day and say,
spk_0
oh, that was you.
spk_0
Oh, really?
spk_0
That was you from the playground.
spk_0
Oh, really?
spk_0
I don't know.
spk_0
But she's I wish I knew her.
spk_0
I wish I knew.
spk_0
Did you really?
spk_0
I mean, are you fooling me?
spk_0
No, I'm fooling you.
spk_0
So we grew up, we were born the same year and we were,
spk_0
I'm a year older.
spk_0
But and we grew from the same year.
spk_0
From Houston?
spk_0
I'm from Houston.
spk_0
Yeah, she's from Houston.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And so we grew up in the same area.
spk_0
So I'm like, at some point we had to be on a playground together.
spk_0
At some point we had to be at a playground.
spk_0
And she has to recognize me and say,
spk_0
you're the care for the playground.
spk_0
So I did meet one of her artists.
spk_0
Chloe and Haley.
spk_0
And they did tell me that she has watched my daytime talk show.
spk_0
So I do think she's, you know, I don't know.
spk_0
I can't go for her, but I do know she's,
spk_0
she's in the least one episode.
spk_0
Yeah, exactly.
spk_0
She's seen me on lock of phone or two.
spk_0
Isn't it great when you know that some big stars watch your show?
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
Who's the biggest star that you were surprised by?
spk_0
They watch your show.
spk_0
Well, I, well, what really through me was all of the rap artists
spk_0
who used me in their lyrics.
spk_0
Oh, yes.
spk_0
So that was, I mean, but Cardi B and Nicki Minaj,
spk_0
and they were, I get the feeling they were also in the middle of their big fight.
spk_0
One of them wanted to come on and take a lot of tech or test.
spk_0
spk_0
And I know legend was great.
spk_0
I mean, he is.
spk_0
And his wife watches my show.
spk_0
In fact, when she had a baby, we sent her a onesie.
spk_0
Oh, that's amazing.
spk_0
Oh, you are, you are the far you're one.
spk_0
I love that's amazing.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
So I mean, I, I, yeah, I always, you know, I always kind of like that stuff.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
People like that.
spk_0
I mean, it was great.
spk_0
You know, I, I was a, I mean, dear acquaintance of George W. Bush.
spk_0
When he was president, he used to have me and a friend of mine down to lunch all the time.
spk_0
And he says one time, you know, Poe had, he had a nickname for it.
spk_0
He goes, Poe, yeah, Poe.
spk_0
spk_0
So Poe, I can't run anymore because my knees are bad.
spk_0
I'm on the treadmill and I'm flipping around.
spk_0
How do you do that show with a straight face?
spk_0
I said, well, think of all the things you have to do every day with a straight face.
spk_0
Exactly, exactly.
spk_0
You know, so I mean, when you get,
spk_0
when you get, you know, athletes, yeah, athletes just loved watching the show.
spk_0
They always used to say football players used to say that the show would be on in the locker room.
spk_0
And the coaches are up there waiting for them to get in the practice.
spk_0
And now it's late.
spk_0
And they won't leave until they find out who the father is.
spk_0
So you're the reason the Cowboys suck.
spk_0
You're, it's your fault.
spk_0
They're in the locker room watching more.
spk_0
I'm not messing with you.
spk_0
That's amazing.
spk_0
So that's what I've always told myself is that if I can make it in a song like Mori,
spk_0
then I know I've made it.
spk_0
It was someone says in a song, I'm going to unlock your phone like Karamo that I made it.
spk_0
I've made it.
spk_0
I made it.
spk_0
Did you start out as a social worker?
spk_0
Yeah, I did.
spk_0
It was the best job ever.
spk_0
It's the best.
spk_0
I would have thought it would be so not intimidating.
spk_0
And at the same time,
spk_0
jeez, can I really make anybody better because of this?
spk_0
Well, it was a catalyst of why I, it was a catalyst of how I run my show now.
spk_0
And like the reason why resources and families and making sure that they're together
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was so important to me because I saw the impact of like what it would do if you just had one moment
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to give a child some love, some support.
spk_0
If you had one moment to get a parent to understand their actions,
spk_0
that helped heal their relationship,
spk_0
it was a blessing to be in that job and I'm so thankful.
spk_0
And social workers do so much and shout out to every social worker out there because
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y'all are the best in the world.
spk_0
Didn't depress you.
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Didn't depress me.
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But you know, saying people ask me sometimes about our shows,
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like you have all these high emotions and you see people sometimes that they're worse.
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Does it depress you?
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And it's like no, because we're human beings.
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You know, was there a moment that depressed you?
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I always thought that our one of the great salvations of the show
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was that people could unburden themselves.
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Exactly.
spk_0
And that they found the show as a safe place.
spk_0
Exactly.
spk_0
And so therefore, you know, I was, I was basically, I was giving a service to them.
spk_0
Yeah.
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But I used to get a lot of crap from media critics who would say,
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you're exploiting these people.
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You ever had that accusation?
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Oh, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Season one, it came out.
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I haven't had it since, which is great.
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Haven't had it since.
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But you know, the same thing, what I say to people is like,
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why can't people have their really emotions?
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You know, like I always think to myself, like,
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why do we need to put people's emotions in a box?
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Just because someone is excited and they move around and your family,
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they don't, but here they do.
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And it's okay for them to have whatever emotion is real for them.
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And also, they're choosing to be here.
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We are not, we're not putting a gun to people's heads on the street of New York and saying,
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hey, get on our shows.
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They're saying, this is a space where I want to solve this issue.
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And I want this person to be the guide of me solving that issue.
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And so I'm excited about it, you know, and
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people have to stop judging how other people decide to live their lives.
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And someone wants to be on our shows that is their choice and they are getting help.
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Do, uh, I mean, you, you know, I'd like to know that start to interrupt you.
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The person I'd like to know that is this Emmy committee,
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who doesn't like to look at conflict shows the same way they look at entertainment shows.
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It's, uh, take, forget them.
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Forget it's crazy.
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The amount of work we put in, it's easier to interview a celebrity.
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I had one nomination in 31 years.
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One in that wild wild wild with the work that it takes for your, your crew,
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for the staff, for you to be able to have people be their authentic self and have a show.
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But you were pretty open about talking about your own mistakes in life.
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Yeah.
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Always.
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Why?
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Because the same way that we talk about like those goody two shock shows where, you know,
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those people have had the same issues I've had.
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And, well, I'll tell you, Oprah,
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her whole success to me was because of showing her vulnerabilities on air,
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agreed 100%.
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Her past, her past, her life, what she's going through.
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Exactly.
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And I, and that's what I always want people to know is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it all.
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I'm gonna tell you that I'm not perfect.
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Like I've had my, we did an episode season two where my son came on and talked about his addiction
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and how almost I found him overdosing.
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And that was a hard moment for me as a dad.
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Like, you know, like, I felt like a failure.
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I felt like what did I not do right?
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Like, you know, he's sober and fine now and doing great.
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But that was a hard moment for us during the pandemic where he was using because he was lost.
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And I talk about that because I'm like, you know how many people,
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opioids drug addiction is rapid in our country.
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Yet we want to pretend like it's not happening in our own families.
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No, I'm gonna tell you happened to me.
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And just because I have this platform doesn't mean that I'm any better.
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And I want people to know like, I got through it and you can't do.
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So my last question before the 19th hole is the name of the podcast is on par.
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When do you feel on par?
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When do I feel on par?
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I feel most aligned when I'm loving myself.
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Whoa, yeah, really?
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I feel most on par.
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So you don't want to love yourself too much but because then you get a big ego, right?
spk_0
Yeah, yeah.
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I think that I think there's a level but I always make sure that I always
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am checking on myself.
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Like the things that you practice saying to yourself in the mirror, I'm big on that.
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I wake up in the morning and I don't go into like saying, oh this doesn't look good.
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Oh, I don't like that.
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Oh, this is whatever.
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I look at a mirror every morning while I brush my teeth and I'm like, you know what?
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You have done it.
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You have made past the odds.
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Like keep going.
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You're a great guy.
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Keep being kind.
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And I feel aligned and it helps me to walk in the world to be able to help other people
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and to show that people love.
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Okay, so we're at the 19th hole.
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Yeah, it's part of the show where I turn it over to you.
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Yeah, you can ask me anything you want.
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I might answer truthfully or I might screw around.
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By the way, I suck at this.
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I don't know how to golf.
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What you want to try right now?
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I will.
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I will.
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I will.
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I'll try and then you'll ask me a question.
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Okay, um, this is going to suck.
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Oh, baby, I don't suck.
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If you were in a talk show host, what job would you have wanted?
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Well, as a kid, you know, we all want to be athletes, you know?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I worked for a broadcaster who did the baseball games for the Washington Senators.
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And I thought I was pretty good at baseball.
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And I wanted to be a baseball player on night.
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So I would in spring training, I would catch the infield ground balls that people were,
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you know, they were working out.
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And so therefore they would let me hit in the batting cage.
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And the first, I'll never forget it, Camilo Pascual, one of the great pictures
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back in the day of the late 50s and early 60s.
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And I thought, I mean, I was a good high school player.
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And he threw me a curveball and it started over here.
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And I guarantee you it was going to hit my head.
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And my foot was in the dugout and it comes right over the plate.
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And that's when I knew I'll never make it.
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That was it.
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That was it.
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That was it.
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Thank God for that.
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We needed you as a talk show host.
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Yeah.
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What else?
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Anything else?
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Is it yours or then me?
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So I'll do it.
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I'll do you and then.
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I don't know if I can do the same thing you did.
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That's pretty damn good.
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That was beginner's luck.
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What?
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Beginners luck for me.
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Oh.
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I had it.
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And I didn't know.
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I just did.
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They hit it hard enough.
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So why are you hitting it?
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I asked you then.
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Yeah.
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So we both had some wild guests on our shows that have had some complicated
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relationships and have done some crazy things.
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Sexually.
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What is the craziest thing Marri Poe has ever done?
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Sexually, intimately.
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You said I can ask you anything.
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Lee said.
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I wonder if you're going to go there.
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Oh my God.
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Sexually.
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Was Moe Poe is a player back of the day before Connie?
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Yeah.
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I mean, here's the difference.
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Yeah.
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Connie was, we'd never dated exclusively.
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She was working in LA.
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I was working in, we've never lived together until we were married.
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And so she would go out with these Hollywood types.
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You were Hollywood type.
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No, but I'm not.
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I was never Hollywood type.
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Connie, I know you meant.
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She went out with stars.
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Yeah.
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spk_0
And so she always said to me, you go out with people whose names you can't even remember.
spk_0
Well, okay.
spk_0
Okay.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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I tell you, I was always back in the way back in the day
spk_0
when I was single.
spk_0
It was back when you went to bars.
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That was the only thing you did.
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Because it was before, you know, social media was before
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dating sites, any of that stuff.
spk_0
And you met at bars.
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Yeah.
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And I was always attracted to the bartender.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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And the problem was, you'd have to wait till two days.
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I do, I get to one, yes.
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Before you ever had a chance.
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Yeah.
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So that was it.
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I have a friend that does the same thing.
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What is that about?
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Still, to this day, he goes to the bar and he only, instead of all the girls that's around,
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he only pinpoints the bartender, sits, talks,
spk_0
with his patient, it's that long game.
spk_0
And by the way, you get to know a person pretty quickly.
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She's the bartender.
spk_0
Yeah.
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So, you know.
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Well, I'm just having to know that Moe was a player back of the day.
spk_0
No.
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We didn't know that Moe was a player before, Coddy, uh, Moe was a player.
spk_0
No, I know what, I'm not that much of a player.
spk_0
Come on, man.
spk_0
Oh, there you go.
spk_0
There you go.
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Go ahead, hit the last one.
spk_0
All right.
spk_0
All right, last one.
spk_0
So like, I went a little while on last one.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Is, um, you had a long relationship and a lot of us want that.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
If there is one thing you could tell me not to do and then to do what would those things be.
spk_0
Oh, okay.
spk_0
This is what I believe.
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Yeah.
spk_0
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See, I still believe that Connie gives me a bunch of crap about it.
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If you have an argument, if you have a discussion,
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the minute your head hits the pillow, yeah, it's over and the next day you start a new.
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I agreed.
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That's most important.
spk_0
Uh, and that's what you want to avoid is then Connie always says, yeah, but I hold a grudge.
spk_0
I hold myself stuff like that.
spk_0
But, uh, so that's what you don't want to do.
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I think more than anything else, what really cuts through any problems, uh, sense of humor.
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Oh, that's nice.
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Left.
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Yeah.
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Sense of humor.
spk_0
Left, left it up.
spk_0
And make sure your mate has a sense of humor.
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Good.
spk_0
You don't want to be around people who are duller all the time.
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Yeah.
spk_0
And just are just don't smile and just I don't want to face that you can look at for the smile.
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That's beautiful.
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What you think?
spk_0
Yeah, that's great.
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Be happy together.
spk_0
I passed the Karamot test.
spk_0
Well, actually, I'm going to break the rule and I'm going to ask you one more.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Can I unlock your phone?
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Can you, what?
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Can I unlock your phone?
spk_0
Lock it?
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Unlock it.
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You want to unlock my phone?
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Sure.
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I'm getting the lock boy's phone.
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Here's nothing on my phone.
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You never know.
spk_0
We just found out you were a player back in the day.
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I don't know what might be on it.
spk_0
I wasn't much of a player.
spk_0
This is funny because MoriPhone is not even on.
spk_0
That's how you know, but I mean, by the way, is your phone on all the time?
spk_0
No, no, no, no.
spk_0
Where to begin?
spk_0
Are you addicted to any social media?
spk_0
The Karamot social media.
spk_0
I'm obsessed with looking at it.
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Really?
spk_0
Yes, obsessed.
spk_0
Do you look at the comments?
spk_0
I don't look at the comments.
spk_0
No, I don't look at the comments.
spk_0
I don't look at the comments.
spk_0
I don't look at the comments.
spk_0
If he leaven 11,
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okay.
spk_0
And Mori is letting me...
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That's my son.
spk_0
He's letting me unlock his phone.
spk_0
I have it in my hand.
spk_0
We're going to the photos first.
spk_0
Oh, a lot of photos.
spk_0
It's all good stuff.
spk_0
It's all golf and good things, y'all.
spk_0
It's all him and Kanye and family.
spk_0
Dogs, dogs, family.
spk_0
Dogs, a lot of dogs.
spk_0
A lot of my kids, my girls and my son.
spk_0
Do you ever, do you ever douse your library in terms of photos?
spk_0
No.
spk_0
Do you keep everything always?
spk_0
I keep everything always.
spk_0
I keep everything always.
spk_0
You think that's taken a lot of...
spk_0
A storage?
spk_0
Yes, it does.
spk_0
It takes all of it.
spk_0
But you know what?
spk_0
It's what keeps us honest.
spk_0
The fact that we can see anybody can unlock my phone.
spk_0
I don't have any problem.
spk_0
I leave my phone around because I'm like,
spk_0
you're not going to find anything at it.
spk_0
No, it's nothing in my phone.
spk_0
I think the fact that people have...
spk_0
There's no point in knowing my phone.
spk_0
It's not that.
spk_0
It's not that.
spk_0
I don't think I'm going to find photos.
spk_0
I don't think...
spk_0
I mean, come on.
spk_0
I mean, I'm 86 years old.
spk_0
I'm a...
spk_0
Hold on, we've had some people on our shows, and they're...
spk_0
Really?
spk_0
We had an episode last week on...
spk_0
on Premiere Week with a 71-year-old.
spk_0
And the thing we found in his phone?
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Really.
spk_0
Jesus Christ.
spk_0
I want to thank you, my friend, for being on.
spk_0
It's so good to see you.
spk_0
Good to see you.
spk_0
Everybody listening do not miss the new season of Caramoshou,
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premiering September 22nd.
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So make sure you tune in.
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And as always,
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subscribe to OnPar with Mari Povitch on YouTube
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and everywhere you get your podcasts.
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Make sure you stay curious, everybody.
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Until next time.
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If you've had as much fun as I did,
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make sure you subscribe
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to OnPar with Mari Povitch on YouTube.
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And tap that little bell so you don't miss a thing.
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And if you like to listen on the go,
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we're on Apple, Spotify,
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everywhere you get your podcasts.
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Hit that follow button.
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I'll be back with more before you know it.
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OnPar with me, Mari Povitch is brought to you
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by MoPo Productions,
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a better life media and Bradley Studios.
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With executive producers,
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me, Mari Povitch,
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Holly J. Mirabella and Christian Thompson,
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supervising producer Mike Bornezian
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and directed by Mark Lieberwitz.