Technology
OB404: The Spirit of Separation
In episode 404 of Opposing Bases, the hosts discuss the intricacies of air traffic control and the spirit of separation in aviation. They also share personal anecdotes from their recent flying experie...
OB404: The Spirit of Separation
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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There are other people in the room watching and plugged in.
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Those people take their job very seriously.
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They don't play around.
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They're there to do a job and they're there to make sure
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you do your job so it does feel like a ton of added pressure.
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Ready.
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Welcome to a Posing Basis Air Traffic Talk,
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an aviation podcast by two air traffic controllers
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and rated pilots who love to talk about flying,
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controlling, and everything in between.
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The show is for entertainment purposes only
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and should not be used as a substitute for your instructor,
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your supervisor, the FAA, the NTSB, or your cat.
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The show will give you a better understanding of how things work
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in the National Airspace System and maybe even make you laugh along the way.
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Please welcome retired Army pilot Alpha Golf
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and first officer at Penguin Airlines Romeo Hotel.
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It's Monday, September 22, 2025, episode 404.
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And today's show will discuss the spirit of separation,
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the air tactical piece of firefighting,
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and more of your awesome feedback.
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What's up, Bayji?
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Hello.
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Hello, everyone.
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Happy Monday.
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Monday.
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Day two of your six day week.
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Yes.
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How was the one to nine on a Sunday?
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I don't remember that more old has been a while since I did that.
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There were periods of slowness
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and there were periods of not slowness.
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What did you like about our busy?
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Definitely busy times.
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The busy times weren't super annoying.
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It just was busy.
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It wasn't like a gazillion practice approaches.
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No offense to you guys doing practice approaches,
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but that becomes taxing very quickly.
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It just requires a lot of attention and brain power and coordination.
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It wasn't a ton of that.
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Although when I got to work, it was 1,300 overcast,
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which is ripe for practice approaches.
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But there really wasn't a ton of that going on.
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And it cleared up and we ended up doing visuals the rest of the night.
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All right.
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I made it home from London again.
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We got back a scheduled around seven.
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Okay, so I had a 730 direct to try out.
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I had already resumed myself to the fact that I'm not making this flight.
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Yeah.
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I'm not.
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But then I got content the other two pilots said we should at least try.
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Right.
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I'm like, all right.
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But do you realize what that means for me for trying this?
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I have to run over there for pretty high odds that I'm not getting on.
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Not to mention the flight was full.
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There were seven standbos.
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I was number five.
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And the jump seat had two other jump seaters.
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One of which was senior to me.
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There's only one jump seat on this awesome plane.
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So my odds of getting there are low and then getting on the plane even lower.
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Yeah.
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And I had a backup.
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I'm going to try the purple box on a Friday night,
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two leg through Memphis.
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That was my backup plan.
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Okay.
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Sure.
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Why not get all sweaty before I try that?
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So I run.
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I made it.
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The gate agency is me.
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And love it.
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Skip right to the chase.
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Yep.
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No seats.
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Jump seaters are already on.
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Sorry.
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I got to close the door by.
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Awesome.
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Yep.
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All right.
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Now I could take a minute to breathe.
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Slowed it.
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Slowed out.
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I had about an hour and change to get over to another part of the world.
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Via a shuttle to a another shuttle to purple box.
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And check in.
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I had time.
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So I literally stood there for a minute just to got my breath.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I was tired.
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I made it faster than I did the last time I did this sprint.
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11 minutes from B55 to C72 via a bus and running.
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And customs.
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No bus.
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Running and customs and security.
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That's what I did it through.
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Wow.
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I'm the only one that keeps up with these records,
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but I feel like that was a good one.
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That was pretty good.
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Anyway, I ended up making it over to purple box.
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I too liked it home.
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I waited for the sort.
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Doesn't that seem like a good idea?
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Well, you're just spent all night in a room waiting to leave.
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It sounds terrible.
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It sounds like you didn't really sleep.
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It was terrible.
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I got a couple of plane naps.
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Yeah.
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I got dumped off and tried it at 604.
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I drove home.
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You were on a triple seven.
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To Memphis, yes.
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And then a seven six to try add.
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Right.
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Yes, which is you're in the flight deck.
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There's three jump seats.
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There was another person with me.
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Never never, but never been on a plane with them before.
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But they're purple box employee,
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committing to try add.
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I slept for that flight.
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I was out.
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Okay.
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So then I had dreams of doing something on Saturday morning,
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like taking my kid to swim practice.
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I'll just lie down for a minute.
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Oh, gone.
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Five and a half hours later, I woke up.
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Yeah.
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So I woke up at about the same time I would have gotten home,
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had I gone to the crash pad, taken an app, a real sleep,
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and come back for a two leg from my base.
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Instead of going through Memphis all night,
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which I like knowing that that's an option,
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but I did not feel good.
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I felt terrible.
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So if you absolutely had to be back,
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yes, it's an option.
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Totally.
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But maybe if there's not a pressing issue,
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you just sleep like a normal person.
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Which has its cost to it too.
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I got to go with the crash pad and then it's a round trip.
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Just that takes time.
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Sure.
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And I know I'm going to have to get up in the morning,
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super early to make it to a flight, to connect through Charlotte.
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So you almost just want to get it done.
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That's why I did it.
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Yeah, just get it over with ripped bandaid off.
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Yeah, just just go through.
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Go through Memphis, eat the rados in a muffin for breakfast at 2 a.m.
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The aviation special.
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Had a mending machine.
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Yes.
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Massive insulin spike.
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Perfect.
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Anyway, that's my story.
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I'm in good spirits.
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So I four days when I got home, four days off,
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I go back on Wednesday, do it all over again.
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All right, show it again.
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Let us begin.
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All right, since OB 403 last week, we have some new supporters.
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Papa Bravo, Bravo Sierra, Kilo Hotel,
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Charlie Oscar, Delta Sierra, Papa Tango, Alpha Ganky, and Kilo Golf are joining us on supercast.
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If you'd like to learn more about supporting the show,
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check out our new support site, opposing bases dot supercast dot com.
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If you're new to podcasts, you want to make sure you don't miss an episode, hit subscribe,
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or follow in your podcast player episodes.
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So it's typical come out on Mondays or Tuesdays.
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And if you have time, leave us a five star rating and a review.
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And we may read on the show.
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Only five stars five star rating.
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Yes. Thank you, everybody.
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Just announcements.
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No review.
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Wow.
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I had to have that banner anyway.
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So all right, so I don't like that.
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All right, everybody, there's the call to action.
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That's what they call this podcast.
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We need a call to action.
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Now, I think they're the fruit player gets a little suspicious.
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If I got like a thousand reviews in a day, which has never happened.
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But you guys don't listen to this all the same time.
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So take the time, please leave us a review.
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You know, make it, it doesn't have to be as awesome as the one we read a couple shows ago.
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Probably going to go down as the best review ever.
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It's pretty good.
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Romeo Kilo.
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It was amazing.
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But you can still leave a funny review.
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And if it's five stars, we may read it on the show.
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So please do that.
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That's right.
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All right, go ahead.
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Do you get number one announcements?
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Number one, big one.
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Not Charlie Romeo.
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Hey, RH&G on August 31st, I passed my ATP check rate.
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Correct.
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It was part of my King Air 300 type wall for the Army.
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I've heard of this happening.
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Some of the guys that I flew with did the same thing.
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Pretty good deal, really.
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I am currently...
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Hold on, break for information here.
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Okay.
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When you've got your ride on your...
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How many, how many you could fly this plane?
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What documentation do you have that resembles anything like a civilian?
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Anything or just logged somewhere in Army World?
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No, I have a flight.
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I forget what the form number is.
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But there is a form.
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It is my flight record.
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It has all of my hours and everything.
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And it's listed on there as a, you know, B20.
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Okay, so it's not like a card to your wallet or anything.
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No, no, no.
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Okay.
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I would have to take that document, go to the FISTO,
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which I certainly could do.
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I just have had no motivation to do that.
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And, you know, fixed wing
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calls would be added to my current ratings.
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Okay.
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Sorry, I'll continue.
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Okay.
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Let's see, it was part of my type call.
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Okay, I am currently on my second career as a US Army experimental test pilot.
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That's cool.
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One of the guys I flew with in the fixed wing course
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was going to that school.
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That's why he was at the fixed wing course to go to the test pilot school.
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And your move to Penguin has inspired me to look into a third career with airlines
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if they will take a middle-aged Army helicopter pilot.
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Thanks for everything you do for the community.
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And I recommend your show to everyone.
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Even our flight surgeon says and also with you, whenever
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here's someone say with you on the radio, Charlie Romeo.
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Uh, let's see, PS like a GI flu, Shunook's DSF's UK's.
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Wow, wow.
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The three four and Mark three four and six of the UK Shunook and golf's.
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That's cool.
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And then the Kinger.
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So I do have enough multi-engine turbine time to be competitive.
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That's cool.
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Wow.
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What's the UK Mark three four six?
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What's that mean?
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Yeah, so they have the UK probably has
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next to us, you know, more Shunook's than anybody.
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And I think that's just how they designate it.
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You know, we have D model F model G model.
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They have three four and six.
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There's our setup a little bit different than ours, but
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same airframe.
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Cool.
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Yeah.
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Congrats on your ATP.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah, excellent.
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Do I get number two?
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Yes.
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All right, Penguin, I've dealt the golf set.
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I'll go up here from outside the Wendy City Bravo.
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I used to be an SKAC, but had to step back due to
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unforeseen hardship.
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I hadn't stopped listening.
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And now I'm back as an impter emperor captain.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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I'm pleased to announce that I've passed my multi-engine ATP.
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Congratulations.
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It was in 2000, but I forgot to mention it since your show did not exist then.
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It was a clap.
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It was in a clapped out piper seminal and I was required to fly
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Q of the Charlie Alpha music.
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I did.
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And NBB using a fixed card relative bearing indicator
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with zero assistance from GPS because even the handheld units weren't approved
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for terminal navigation at the time.
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I don't, I'm not trying to be dramatic.
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I know this generation hates pilots saying all the things that used to have.
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And if I had started flying there like back in the day,
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we had to use lorans and the stars and our glasses were all,
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you know, our ceilings were all glass so we could see the constellations
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that would be, I won't want to hear that.
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I understand.
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But, but, I'm here.
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I implore you the next time you go out to GA,
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you're not going to do this in airline world.
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It's not feasible.
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But in GA world, what the help of another pilot?
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Okay, so you can get through this emotional experience.
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Don't use your iPad.
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Just try this be situational aware based on a VOR.
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And if your plane has one at NB.
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And then think we used to feel like that all the time.
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You had to build a picture of where you were.
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All the time.
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I, I remember just as the non-flying pilot, constantly,
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we only had one VOR.
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We did not have two.
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So when you wanted to cross check and get two radials,
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you were tuning, identifying.
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Okay, no teradial market.
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Now, hurry and do the next one before you're so far off of that line,
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depending on where you were, that you could figure out
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generally where you were on the map.
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On a paper map.
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No moving map.
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One VOR.
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I ran into, I won't call them out by initials.
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I ran into someone recently who's only flown
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post EFB world.
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And they said they cannot imagine flying without it.
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And now I can't either.
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Anyway, go do that.
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Go, go feel what it was like to fly.
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Not that long ago.
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With the map and looking outside and
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VORs and all the things.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Delta golf continues.
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Another quick update.
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I accidentally fell into an instructing job.
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A serious training center instructor under the Lindy City Bravo
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at the airport named after
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Edward O'Hare's illegitimate French child.
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Oh wow.
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Okay.
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The learning curve for me was steep teaching primary students
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after flying a 737 for the past 18 years,
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something I still enjoy flying.
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I really enjoyed reaching into the frozen water
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and placing fresh penguins on our students icebergs.
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Only them, only for them to show up to the next lesson
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were the vast frozen hoth of emptiness.
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Whereas the penguin I gave you, I ask
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a menagerie of blank stairs and shoulder shrugs
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in Sioux as I gladly reached back into the frozen depths
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to pull out fresh one.
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Place it firmly on board in hopes
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that this time it stays attached.
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But seriously, the show was taken on new meaning for me
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as I've used your topics regularly
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in teaching my clients how to navigate safely through the nest.
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And much like a teacher who wheels in the TV
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and the VCR player during class.
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Those were the best days.
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Oh yeah.
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I routinely rely on your show to assist my teaching.
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My favorite episode is the one about OTPs
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with the help of the Terp Self.
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I'll keep it short for now in case this is a G's turn to read.
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Congrats on OB 403 whenever,
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oh, congrats on episode 403
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or whenever this makes it to the top of the inbox.
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Close.
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Thanks for the great work.
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Love the show Delta Golf.
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Well, thanks for the nice note and the update.
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And that's cool.
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You kind of fell into an instructor job.
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Sounds like an awesome plan to teach in too.
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So I like the comment
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about the 737.
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You know, was steep teaching primary students
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after flying a 737 for the past 18 years.
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Something I still enjoy flying.
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It sort of makes it sound like,
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hey, let's take the 737 out today.
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You know, what do you want to do?
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Oh, let's take the 737.
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Just off the way.
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It's a lunch on the other side of the country.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Cool.
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All right.
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Thank you.
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Delta Golf moving on.
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Die, baby.
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Back on.
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I'm ready.
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How about you get number one?
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Number one, ping-1-on to Bravo Mike.
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Hey, guys, early computers used
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octal numbers 0 through 7,
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octal numbers to save space.
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I've always wondered if you should
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number your episodes in octal.
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Although that would limit your episodes to 4,096.
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You trust me, Penguin Bravo Mike.
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Uh, 4,096.
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That would mean about 10 times what we've done already.
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Which would be 80 years worth.
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80 years.
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I'm going to make a prediction.
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We're not going to get there.
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I'm not going to make it.
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This was in response to the 4,096 transponder conundrum.
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We found ourselves in last week when controllers
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insisted on issuing random codes with eights and nines that do not exist.
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Now, having said all that, it is kind of silly and borderline
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stupid that we haven't adapted the system.
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Secondary would read those numbers.
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It doesn't care.
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It doesn't care.
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And we have everybody, well, not everybody.
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There are a significant number of transponders that can dial
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and that have digital.
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You're just typing in a number.
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Yeah.
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The reason they don't dial in an eight or nine is because it doesn't exist on their screen.
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But there's certainly nothing preventing that from happening.
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Right.
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So we kind of need to move past that.
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Yeah.
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We're talking about the days of
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the first transponders I used had a wheel inside of there.
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We're pushing a button and turning the wheel around
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going from.
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So when you changed codes, you had to go to standby
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because it didn't see rotating through.
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Yeah. They would lose their absolute.
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They would just completely lose their minds.
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What are you doing?
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Cycle through all these codes.
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Right.
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So yeah.
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I agree.
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But this is another example of aviation.
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I don't want to say hindered by, but, you know,
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in concert with a government agency,
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which tends to be slow and inefficient,
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this is the result of that.
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We're just going to hang on to this old stuff forever and ever.
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Right.
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And as long as we're flying planes for 70, 80 years,
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right, which has been normalized.
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Right.
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You know, you're right.
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It's the agency itself takes a while to move past.
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We're probably in the 70s right now.
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Maybe the late 80s by now.
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We're moving up to the mystic.
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40 years behind.
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And the planes are really old too.
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So we got to go easy on them.
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Thank you, bro.
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Mike.
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I get number two from Hangro at Mike Alpha.
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All right.
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Thanks for taking the time to chat before your trip.
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I forgot to mention during our conversation.
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If you've ever had any questions about the Penguins 75 or 76,
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you can send me an email and I'll be happy to get you an answer.
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It can be anything maintenance related that you might be curious about.
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For example, why are when certain things are done or not done at penguin
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or just specific aircraft systems, curiosities?
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Okay.
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So I'm sitting,
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bunking, we're waiting to push back
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and Mike Alpha, the maintenance personnel from Penguins,
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walks into the flight deck and says,
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hey, I need to see you.
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And we had a maintenance issue that was going on.
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So the captain gets up to get out of his seat.
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And he's like, no, no, not you.
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Like, this is weird.
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What did I do?
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Anyway, we had a brief introduction.
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Thanks for stopping by and saying hello.
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He said, the first thing he said was, don't worry, you're not in trouble.
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I just wonder what the captain's like.
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Right now, it's got to need to see the bunkie.
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What is happening here?
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All right.
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That was nice meeting you, Mike.
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Alpha, that said, I was at the tail end of a very busy day.
spk_0
I apologize for what might have been a seemingly awkward introduction.
spk_0
I don't think you could have done it any better.
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There was, it would have been awkward if you did it up there.
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And I'm broadcast, you know, nobody cares that I do a podcast.
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But I don't sound like I introduced myself that way.
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Right.
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It would have been weird.
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So thank you for taking it outside of the flight deck.
spk_0
I like that.
spk_0
It seems that right, it seems that right then, at the end of my shift,
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every penguin responsible for social interaction took a nose dive off my iceberg.
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Now it's fine.
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Lastly, as someone working towards a future pilot position, a penguin,
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I really enjoy the bonus audio as well.
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Thanks again, penguin, my call for.
spk_0
Well, cool.
spk_0
Thanks for stopping by and saying hello.
spk_0
And I may take you up on that.
spk_0
There are, I do have a lot of curiosities about this plane.
spk_0
And in general, I was just having this discussion with an FO.
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System-wide, wise in terms of knowledge.
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Now, versus maybe 15 or 20 years ago at airlines,
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our knowledge is very shallow.
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We used to have to know a lot more.
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Okay.
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And they were reminiscing about the CRJ, which we both flew.
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And their systems classes were much more in depth.
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Not to say that it's not as important anymore.
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And pilots still have curiosities about things.
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We just don't spend the time that they used to in a classroom explaining all the stuff.
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Yeah.
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The Army has done the same thing.
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They've taken the same approach.
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There's a ton of stuff that is nice to know.
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But they've really tried to pair it down to,
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hey, I'm sitting here in the cockpit.
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And these are the things that I can do.
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So tell me how I interact.
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Not because I mean, and I've said this before,
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but it was to the point where we're taking a hydraulic pump
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and they've cut it in half with a laser or whatever.
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And we're like dissecting it.
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That's a lot.
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Yeah.
spk_0
What?
spk_0
No.
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This isn't helping me.
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What?
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If the thing goes bad, what do I do from here?
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And why do I do that?
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Not how does it inside of the pump work?
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How many bearings you know are in the output shaft or you know, whatever.
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Like,
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tell me useful stuff.
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And I think that's what they're trying to get to
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is the Army had this campaign calling it defrag the hard drive.
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Where let's get rid of some of this stuff that
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to be honest, we're just using to weed people out.
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You know, we're just piling all this extra stuff on
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to make you memorize it and know it and regurgitate it on a check ride.
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But then never really use it again.
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Like organic kind of stray for med students.
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That's their weed out.
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Is that what it is?
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I don't know.
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I never tried medical school, but I'm pretty sure I would have gotten to one of those classes
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and been like, I'm out.
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But I'll save you the effort of grading that poor performance.
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I'm going.
spk_0
Cool.
spk_0
Anyway, nice to meet you, Mike Alfa.
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Feel free to stop by again and I will send you questions.
spk_0
You're welcome.
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All right, we have audio.
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You ready to play from another controller center controller
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who I reached out to for some clarity on an issue we've been talking about
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for the last couple of weeks.
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Flight plans and amended strips and all the things.
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So you ready to play?
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I am.
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Three, two, one.
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Hi, guys.
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Aside from Frozen North,
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RH asked me to send in some audio to kind of explain
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hard altitudes and inner and altitudes and why you guys get a crazy number of strips.
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And really all it is is that when we sit down at the sector,
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we plug in E-RAM into our brain and we just have to think the word strip
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and it sends a strip to the Traycon.
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So we just, we think it's funny to waste paper and to make your guys life horrible.
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So we just think strip, strip, strip and it sends strips to to the Traycons.
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But really what's happening is when you file an altitude,
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I'm going to kind of walk through this from beginning of flight to the end of the flight.
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It's probably going to be long but hopefully it'll give your your listener some insight to
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what's going on here.
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So when you file an altitude in your flight plan, you put in Penguin 123 filing,
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file level 360. So when you depart,
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whether it's coming from the Traycon or off an airport that we work to the ground,
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because yes, we do work airplanes all the way to the ground, I know, crazy.
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So Penguin 123 departs Cherry Capital Airport and they are released to 3,000 feet by the tower.
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But on our data block, it shows flight level 360.
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Because the data block shows what your file altitude is.
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Now we can change the what we call the hard altitude or we can put on top of that,
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what's called an interim altitude. So as you climb, let's say you depart to 3,000 feet
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and we climb you to 8,000 for traffic. We put in an interim altitude of 8,000 and it says 8,000
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T in the data block and then what your mode C read out is.
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As you climb and we have to type everything we talk, every root amendment, every altitude
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amendment, every heading, every speed, everything that we're talking, we're also typing.
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So as we step climb you up, climb 18,000, 1,000, 2,000. We put in an interim altitude of 12,000.
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Climbing maintain flight level 230. There's an interim of flight level 230, but there's
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that hard altitude of 4,000, 36,000 that's your filed,
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NAS altitude is still living underneath that interim altitude.
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Interim altitudes don't affect the NAS. They're a local thing.
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They're local between centers. Centers can see them. Tracons cannot.
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But like the next set, the next center over can also see the interim altitudes that we're putting
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into our data blocks. So what's happening is as you climb, we are putting in interim altitudes
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until you finally reach your cruising altitude. We can assign you climb maintain
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flight level 360. We uncover the interim and now it's showing 360.
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Now we can change that too. If you're climbing up and you say, hey, we want to stop at
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flight level 340. We can change your hard altitude. We altitude 340 CID enter and it changes
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the hard altitude and that will change your NAS altitude, I guess, for like the better term.
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So what's happening with you guys is airplane is cruising merely long and they want to start down.
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So our high altitude sector owns 42040 above. So you're at 36 and let's say that there's
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a bunch of traffic and we step you down to 32, 30, 28, 26, 24 all the way down every time
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if we say descent pile discretion maintain for about 300. If we put in a hard altitude of 300
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as your newest signed altitude, that's going to send a new strip to the Tracon. If we do an
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interim altitude of 300. It won't. So every time we step you down, if we're changing your
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hard altitude, it sends a new strip. If we change the interim altitude, it doesn't and it's
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purely just a technique thing. Some people use interim, some use hard altitudes, I tend to use
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interim altitudes. But what then ends up, what happens then is so then we descend you to 24.
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We flash you at the low, the low takes the hand off and they step you down again.
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Decentimate for level 210, 190, 170,000 all the way down to whatever the altitude that we're
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supposed to be given you to the Tracon at. If we're doing that as a hard altitude every single
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time, it sends a new strip. If we do it as an interim altitude, what the data block kind of looks
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like on the guts of the data block is that if we say descent and maintain 1,3000, but we've been
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using interim altitudes the entire way down, if you uncover that interim underneath it, it will
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still say for level 360. So 360, the NAS still thinks that 360 was your assigned altitude,
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even though the data block is reflecting 1,3000. And I guess there's no, it's just a technique
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thing. There's no real to me. There's no right or wrong way to do this. I'm sure there's intricacies
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of some people are going to think that you should use a hard altitude. Some people use interim,
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I tend to use interim for exactly this reason. I know that this sends stupid amendment strips
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to the Tracon and they don't really need them or want them. And I care about the little people,
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so I tend not to do that. But that's what's happening is as these airplanes are getting step down
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from the flight levels, if the center controller is using a hard altitude for each one of these
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step down altitudes, you get a new strip. If you use an interim altitude, you don't get a new
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strip. I have no idea if this is the same for Roots 2. So if we put in a fix that kind of bends
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their route or something before it enters the Tracon, it might send a new strip to you as well.
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That I don't know, but I know for sure that this hard altitude versus interim altitude thing is
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is probably what's at play here. So hope this kind of shed some light on this. If you have any more
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questions or whatever and you want to hear from a real air traffic controller again, please let me know.
spk_0
Thanks guys. I love the cat. I love the snark. Thank you, Sarah India.
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Your thumbs up and during the route change. I think of the change in progress or whatever that's
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called. I have an immense the time that it'll get there. I think for sure we'll get a new strip.
spk_0
Yes. Yes. That's happening. Okay. The altitudes we don't know what function is generating this
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strip because one are strips for arrivals to try and don't even show an altitude. Right.
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So we have no idea at all. No. In fact, last night on the landline, the center had a guide descending
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and was handing it off and he says, Hey, I don't know what your data block shows. He's descending to,
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but I've got him down to whatever 10. I said, yeah, I don't. We're show live altitude. Yeah, I
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say I show him leaving 17 something. Is that what you mean? Yeah. So I don't think it's
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I don't I don't think the issue that we have with all these strips is a center. It's not a problem
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we have with the center. They are going to make amendments and do what they have to do. I think
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it's a system problem in that. Hey, do we really need to generate a new strip every time this is
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happening? Just for just you know, for the premise of not wasting all these strips, they're expensive.
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You're just printing out strip. I've a strip. I've a strip. And I'm you know,
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right now trash. Yeah, this goes right in the trash. Because if you're just a reminder, this new strip
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has no changes to it. It looks the exact same as the previous five. Yes, except it's got a different
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amendment on it. That's it. We don't get a different amendment. Maybe a different time. Maybe.
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But unless you really cut a big corner, it's never going to be enough time to really make a
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ton of difference to us. It changes if you progress it, if that's the term, you know, updating the
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route and saying, now they're here and they're going here. It can change the coordination fix.
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And the strip tells you where they're going to enter the airspace. At what point on the boundary
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are they going to enter? And it can change that. But again, we don't really care.
spk_0
Right. Because if they didn't change, they just moved them, but didn't change the actual route.
spk_0
And they're over the L away arrival fix. It stays on there. Right. That's it. Yeah. I'm just
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thinking I feel like, and you know, I had a discussion about this. I feel like it happens more
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with the West Center than the East Center. But maybe that's just saying a total on my brain.
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I just don't recall it happening as much from the East on handbees and blocks. Okay.
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But I could be totally wrong. Okay. Which makes me feel like they're doing interim.
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But I could think this would have made sense to me. If someone said, hey, at one of these centers,
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they're training them that it won't flash unless you amend the hard-nast altitude. Yeah.
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And that's why they do it because they don't think it'll work any other way.
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That's unfixable. That's primacy. They'll never change.
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So, right. So what I just talked about is, you know, to affect a handoff, the flight path
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in the NAS is defined laterally and vertically. So it matters vertically what the altitude is,
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where it's going to hand off to. Because if I amend, and if I have an altitude set in a flight
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plan for 10,000, but the sector I want to hand off to doesn't start until 13, it will never allow
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me to hand off to that higher altitude. It says, we can't do that there at 10. They're going to go
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into, laterally, into a different one. The center, I don't think, is under that constraint. They can
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just hand off to whoever. My amy can hand off to Seattle. They're just, they're pushing a couple
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of different keys. Yeah. Right. And then it's just an automated point out, you know, to 67 sectors
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across the NAS. But for us, the altitude matters. And we make very few altitude amendments.
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Maybe a five to a seven, you know, but anyway, what else did I write down here?
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I think that's pretty much it. It's good to know on our end that that's, you know, what's going on.
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And maybe we could talk to them and say, hey, please make it stop.
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I think that'll make it worse. Yeah, probably. Because it sounds like they wouldn't have any idea
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that they had that impact. I'm not criticizing their knowledge, but as I may care about the
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little people, but I don't know if it's a care or not care. It's just they just don't know. They
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have no idea that we're even looking at these strips or they come out of a printer. They don't
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have any idea what that that change does for our side. So they may never know.
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That should be here's what we need. This is my solution.
spk_0
There needs to be a rule for every superfluous strip that you are responsible for printing out
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of our printer. For every single one, you have to spend a day working flight data in the triad
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tracon and take all these strips and put them in the trash on an entire shift.
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It would stop. I think that would work. Yes. Let's move number four to next week. It's more
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center nuanced stuff. Okay. And we went deep enough today. We did. Okay. I like that.
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Fancy jet music. All right. This week's Show Topic is brought to us by The News because it's
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awesome. Reminder we rarely talk about current events on the show. We're not going to play any
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audio. We don't want to throw it in the bus. That's still an underlying theme of the show. Not
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you've probably heard about. I watched a couple of the news coverage of this. The little two-minute
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soundbites and there was a mid-air incident with Air Force One and a pilot was reprimanded by ATC
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and those soundbites are some of them are a little bit funny, but we're going to try to zoom out
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a little bit and discuss what happened, why it happened, and maybe enlighten some people who heard
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it and thought this was the end of the world. How could this possibly happen? And we're going to
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try to water down a little bit. How about that? Yeah. The headlines, the one of the headlines that I
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saw had it so backwards. The way that I read it, it made it sound like the pilot was yelling at the
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controller to get off the iPad. And I'm like, what? What? That doesn't make sense. Let me read this.
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All right, let's try to go through these and kind of explain it. The incident was air traffic
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working Air Force One and a carrier in the United States in busy airspace in the Northeast.
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The carrier will call, what are we calling this carrier right now? Yellow. Sure. Yellow airlines.
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Yellow airlines missed a couple of radio calls before complying with a traffic instruction.
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The controller voiced their frustration on the frequency and social media blew it up.
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So here we are. Voices of reason. Try to put this into perspective on what actually happened.
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All right. So let's let's let's let me just say this. I think if this is not Air Force One and
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it's just two planes, no one ever hears about this. Exactly. It doesn't exist as a story.
spk_0
Mm-hmm. Stuff like this happens.
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Hourly. Probably. Yeah. How many times a day? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not at one center all day long,
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but it happens all of the time. Yeah. Okay. Why don't you get number two? All right. So what happened?
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Yellow plane. Big yellow plane. It's big. Big yellow plane.
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It is. I don't I don't know the exact distances here.
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But they're sort of same direction, slightly converging maybe very shallowly converging
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with Air Force One. A traffic call is issued to yellow with a 20 degree turn. Traffic. Yes.
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The traffic call was very interesting. It wasn't just traffic, you know, nine to 10 o'clock,
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seven miles, same direction, 747. Which is what it probably should have been. Right.
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You might see him. It's a big blue and white plane. You know, you know who it is. You can't miss him.
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He's sort of comments. Turn 20 degrees right. Then there was no response.
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The patient's level for this situation is probably very low to begin with. Okay. Like
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controllers are going to be on a heightened state working Air Force One. There's somebody there
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over their shoulder. There are a lot of extra people in the room.
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So he makes the call again. Then there's no response. Okay. Now admittedly, I would start to get
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frustrated at this point. I would. And it wasn't until the third call that the pilots responded.
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And the controller added their frustration into the end of the exchange by saying, pay attention,
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get off the iPad. That audio went viral because of the involved parties.
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And it's sparking a debate about piloted attentiveness and controller professionalism.
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And I haven't watched a ton of or seen a ton of commentary on it. But I know what it must sound
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like. Okay. Right. I know what it must sound like. And it's by people who
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typically don't have any idea what they're talking about. None. All right. So why do pilots
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miss calls? This happens to me all the time. We get to talk in. We're looking at something else.
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Controllers miss calls all the time. I probably missed six in one session last night because there
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was a lot going on. People were talking in the tracon. There's a ton of distractions. Okay.
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Same for the cockpit. Tell me about that. I mean, it's strange to hear this, but pilots actually
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talk to each other sometimes. And in this amazing airplane, which I've complained about before,
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the audio setup is pretty awful. We have a speaker that's way down on the right side of the
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for me on the right side down, download. There's a speaker knob. We're not listening in our headsets.
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There's it's easy to miss a call, even when you're not doing anything, it conversationally.
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It's easy to miss a call because it's hard to hear it sometimes. Sometimes transmissions get
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stepped on. This is not slow airspace in the assets. There's tons of calls. The audio that was
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on the internet could have very well been isolated to those to that airplane and that control when
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there could have been, you know, 15 other calls in that same minute that were cut out. What about
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guard? What about monitoring guard? We have it on. I monitored it all the time. It's on. I hear it all.
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Yes, so that can be. So that's in the back of your ears too. It's a distraction. Depending on
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your audio setup, you could have that on speaker or both of them in your ears if you're using headsets.
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I think this airplane at yellow plane is probably a headset they're using, but I'm assuming I've
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never been in that plane. It just happens. It's not unusual. And the fact that Air Force 1 was
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involved isn't going to make the pilots on frequency immune to the normalcy of missing calls.
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Right. It happens. And there's sort of an overlying big picture of all this. Yellow airlines
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is going undergoing some unusual job pressure right now. And that could lead to them being distracted.
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I'm not making it excuse for them, but when your airline is under their spotlight and pilots get
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together and the door shuts, conversations happen and people get emotionally heated sometimes,
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that is a real possibility. It doesn't matter who's involved. They're just they're distracted.
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They have other things on their mind. Yeah. Why might it control or be frustrated?
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AJ alluded to this a little bit. One last time he worked Air Force 1.
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During the last campaign, I guess. All right. So explain how that feels when
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you're you're in the hot seat. You're being watched. You're definitely in the hot seat.
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Take care. You're in the spotlight. There's a supervisor plugged in with you.
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Normally that wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But then there are other people in the room
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watching and plugged in. Those people take their job very seriously. Very seriously. They don't
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play around. It's not funny. There's nothing. There's no. There's no joking. Okay. They
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they're there to do a job and they're there to make sure you do your job. So it does feel like
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a ton of pressure added pressure. Now that being said, typically working Air Force 1 is fairly
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easy because they're they give them a wide berth. There's a lot of space around them. You're not
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you know trying to run a squeeze play or anything like that with them. So
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but it does add a level of stress for sure. And they become the priority when
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they're on frequency. They are numero uno. So when there's an issue that comes up like this
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that directly involves them, it can heighten your level of stress very rapidly.
spk_0
Mm hmm.
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Everything is going to be magnified. Everything that might go wrong pertaining to this plane is going
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to be magnified. Yeah. You're under a lot of pressure. And that's where this frustration can
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can play out on the frequency. And this the sector or the the the facility I guess working
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this at the time culturally is how do I say this? They're not afraid to speak their mind
spk_0
on frequency already. Agreed. Okay. They will tell you when you're messing up.
spk_0
I don't I don't it doesn't bother me at all. I I sort of appreciate their you know frankness
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sometimes. And and and their attitudes. But I guess what what I'm trying to say is that it's
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just different than other places in the country. You're not going to get that feeling in the southern
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United States for the most part. Anyway, so I think that that sort of plays into this.
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The frustration coming out.
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The phraseology you know obviously it was is not standard.
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Uh, but I think once it went sideways it won't it just kept getting worse. It was
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yeah. Okay. Who's ready to get them out? Yeah. Get them out of there.
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And not in a in a disciplinary way. But you know once the wheels fell off and it went sideways
spk_0
I think it has got worse. Yeah. And who knows what the supervisor is plugged in? Who knows what he's
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saying in the background? Get try him again. Try him again. You know he might be in a panic as well.
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I mean, and who knows what the the other suits in the room are saying? That's the factor that we
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won't ever find out about. There could have been some external pressure in the room saying,
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hey, yeah, they're not a conflict, but we want this made up rule. They'll make up a rule on the fly.
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We want an x-mile ring around Air Force One and a thousand or two thousand feet if you can't do
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both and you better figure it out because we don't want anybody. Okay. Well now I'm playing with
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this congested airspace with a made up rule. That's going to lead to a little more frustration on
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the controller's part that maybe didn't volunteer to be sitting down at this point in time. Yeah,
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right. They weren't running to the scope. Yeah. Oh, let me do it. Let me. Yeah. No.
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So then they get, you know, the brief they skipped earlier, which they probably got briefed.
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Hey, this is going to happen today. They ignored it and now they're paying for that.
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It just piles up. That's all I'm saying. It piles up and I felt bad for the controller in the
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situation because I knew there were other people in the room that must have been in their ear,
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chirping at them. Yeah. And they took that frustration out on the frequency. Yeah. That's what I feel
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like happened. Yeah. I think you're right. You know, and some of those other people in the room
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are not controllers. They have a general knowledge of how this works, how the center works,
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how a tracon works. They can look at a scope and sort of understand what's happening,
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but they are not controllers. And so their thoughts, words, constraints that they feel that
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they're under are different than what a controller feels like. And a controller might look at this
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situation. I don't, what were they? Seven miles. It was not close. It wasn't close. It's not like
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it was a near miss or anything remotely like that. And there's flash for the controller's listening
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who think you could just because it's a big airplane. You could see it from seven miles away.
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Okay. Let's just assume they saw a plane. Right. There's no way they could discern details
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from seven miles. That's not happening. No. It's not happening. No.
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So the whole dialogue about, oh, you'll see, I mean, we'll recognize them. It's blue and white. It's
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big. Yeah. I don't see them. There's some chrome on it. All right. So big picture. The safety was
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never compromised. There was no separation laws. Everything worked. Air Force One was certainly
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never in danger. If you're plugged in and you're working in a Force One, you do, you have to put
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out way a lot of that. You have to ignore the people in the room as much as you can. You have to
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take a deep breath, especially if you're about to get bombarded with a bunch of sharpened because
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God forbid, they don't have this traffic call for seven miles away. And they miss a call. Just
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try to take a breath before you get frustrated. Every controller and pilot is under the threat of
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you're going to end up on YouTube. If you get emotional, it's going to be on the internet.
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Think about that. It's not a threat, but it can happen. You should conduct yourself in a way
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that lends itself to this. This won't be embarrassing for me. Easier said than done. What, what do you
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love for that? Just reminding me of a thing I said last night that maybe wasn't the best thing to say.
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Okay, so there's legitimate pressures on both sides of the mic. When I hope everybody takes
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away from this, there's pilots with job stress, controllers with weird supervision in the room.
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Both factors can contribute to a little bit of a loss of professionalism. When the record
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button's happening in YouTube gets a hold of it in social media and all the people who know
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nothing about aviation it blows up. So take a deep breath. Relax. Maybe turn your head as
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you're the controller. Turn your head and say, I'm working on it. Stop bugging me. Yeah, please.
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They're fine. Relax. Yeah. I'm going to take care of this. So yeah. You want to take the last one
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there? Oh, the final message. Yeah. Yeah. Give them a break. Give them a break. I think everybody
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wanted to jump over the controller. Yeah. How could they do that? It's weird. Get off the iPads,
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a weird thing to say. Totally random. It's just sort of represents distraction, I guess.
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But you're right. The system worked. There was no compromise of safety.
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Just try to stay professional. Which is what I failed to do last night. What can you say?
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What you said? You don't want to eat it. A jet departed off a triad. They were going out to the
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Northwest on the Trisha departure. There were a few things going on. Not super busy, but I was
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executing something off frequency. I don't know if I was typing. If I was doing something else on
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the keyboard or sluing with the track ball. But I issued an instruction while I was accomplishing that
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other thing. Sometimes when you're in sort of robot automatic mode like that, you don't realize
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what you said because it was just an automatic. You're truly trying to conduct two things at the
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same time. Sometimes your brain doesn't work very well doing that. So I said what I thought my
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brain said was clear direct Trisha. The pilot didn't respond initially. I finished doing my task.
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And he goes, we don't find Jeannie on, we don't have Jeannie. And I said, is that what I said?
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I said Jeannie. He said, yeah, I'm pretty sure you said Jeannie. I'm like, okay, well that was
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wrong. You know, you're clear direct to Trisha. He goes, oh, that makes more sense. So then they turn.
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Then the center takes a hand off. And I switched them and I said, contact the center on this frequency.
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I have vetted this transmission through my brain this time.
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For accuracy or something like that. And he got a chuckle and he said, no problem. You know,
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I get it. I understand. So I think that you're safe from YouTube on that one. Yeah, hopefully.
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This reminded me when you said the people in the room may not have air traffic experience.
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My one time being in charge downstairs, we've talked about this story a few times. Air Force One
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Touch. I was one in charge during this. There's low weather. And the secret service in the room
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said, well, why don't you do this? And they pointed to the screen and made this like. And she says,
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just swoop them in like this. She's talking about the non Air Force One airplane.
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I said, we can't swoop. The weather's too low. I kind of swoop way out here. Yeah.
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It's she's saying anything else. She'd let me, that was it. I was the final answer on that.
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So they held the non the non Air Force One plane, which led to controller being super upset,
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like really, really mad. But the point was, they're not experts. And that could have been
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happening here too. What? Turn them get, you know, all they think about is this perimeter that
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they've set up. And it's not happening. And they're not listening to the interaction or lack
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thereof because the pilot missed the calls. And they just keep chirping because they don't necessarily
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have heads that plugged in. They're just looking at the result on the screen. Yeah. So I could see how
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the sun folded in the room. I feel bad for the controller. Give give them a break. And the pilots
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that missed the call, okay, you learned your lesson. And by the way, they didn't take the bait on
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getting emotional and frequency. They didn't say they just kept it super brief. There's really no
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audio of them. Right. They understood they made a mistake. They understood their audience. They kept
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their mouth shut and they they kept going. Yeah. It's not the end of the world, everybody. Just relax.
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That's it. That's all that's all I have to say about it. Get I like that segment. I a rare
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entry into somewhat current events for us. Mm hmm. Get all right. Moving on.
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Be it back time. What do you want here? I'll put pictures up on the screen. All right.
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Number one from Penguin up Ross air greetings. RH&A G from somewhere with smoky skies.
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Thank you for your unwavering energy and dedication building in Austin community. Thank you.
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And you're welcome. I recently passed a check ride to become a qualified air tactical group
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supervisor better known as air attack over wildfires. Yes, congrats. If you're not familiar,
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we are firefighters riding right seat and managing the airspace over a wildfire, which are best to
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at least sound like controllers, clearing an aircraft sequencing fixed and rotor wing to drop
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on critical targets, coordinating close air support with ground forces. But we fall short of the
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cods of the towers. Imagine penguins bailing off a fiery iceberg.
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Well, I have had 20 years as a wildland firefighter. I had no formal aviation experience. I began
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searching for resources to learn more about controllers and aviators enter opposing bases.
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You have been an incredible resource. And I'm long overdue to be an OB supporter.
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Congrats on 400 episodes. Browseera assuming iceberg air attack pictures attached, which are
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each showing there on the screen. If you're in the chat, the bottom left picture is nuts.
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Yeah, you really have an interesting view of how this thing is progressing. And when you see
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aerial firefighting happening from the ground, it's hard to make sense of it.
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Well, why are they dropping there? But when you look at it from this view above,
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it becomes much more obvious, I think. Well, to the untrained eye, maybe. I guess you would definitely
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want to have experience chewing wildland firefighting on the ground before you were in this position.
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Because if you stuck me in the air, I could talk on the radios, but I have no idea where this
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suppression, fire suppression needs to go. I don't know how to attack this thing. So
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this is very, very cool. So what we're looking at on this look down from the presumably from this
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air attack plane is a fire that's happening. And you can see these very well-defined lines as it's
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of advancing in one direction. And it just seems to be much more clear from up above like this
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about what the fire is doing. There's a photo, it looks like a shunuk with a water bucket.
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Actively dumping water, I could see some firefighters on the ground. There is still some burning
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embers and stuff next to some of these guys. And then we have a screen, a screen grab of what looks
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like maybe for flight and their plane orbiting over this fire and just a ton of circles over and over
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and over. I don't think I realized, maybe I missed it in previous feedbacks, that there was
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somebody in that attack or a coordination role in the air that wasn't carrying a bucket,
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but coordinating the efforts of those that were. I didn't know that.
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Yeah, that's pretty interesting.
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Overseas when we had certain types of missions and we would have all these planes stacked up
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over an objective, this person that doing all the coordinating of the air assets
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was actually on the ground with the ground force. I found that to be a fascinating job,
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a super high speed like you have to know a ton about a bunch of different planes,
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their capabilities, their loiter times, weights, what can they carry, what can an Apache carry,
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what can a shunuk carry, how many people can they carry, and how do I coordinate all of these
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planes together to accomplish this mission? These people in this plane overhead, they have
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their hands full. There's a ton of assets that they're working coordinated to put all this together.
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Ground assets, air assets, all kinds of stuff going on. It's very, very interesting.
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Very cool. Thank you for sending it in, Bravo Sierra, and congrats on your qualification.
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Yes, congrats. I get number two. Yes. All right, Penguin Alpha Lima, the recent
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Frekenomics podcast focused on ATC for episodes 645 and 646.
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645 is more general, but insightful. If you haven't heard this show, this is totally non-Aviation
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related. I think it's a very interesting show. I'm a nerd. I listen to it. It's a political,
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in my opinion, and some of the topics are really interesting. They did two shows on ATC,
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which I had heard when I got this feedback. I'm glad someone else is listening, and I'm not the only
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nerd out there. But 645 is more general, but insightful. And 646 features an interview with a
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just retired controller from North Cal, Kila Lima, finally in bold. We have some independent
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confirmation that you both haven't just been blowing smoke these many years, seriously,
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the passion and dedication we hear from this controller is the same way of heard from you both.
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It's just awesome to know that our lives and those of our loved ones are protected by such
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an awesome group of people working under such difficult circumstances. Overall, these two podcasts
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are well worth less than I second that motion. I sent them to you saying, when you have time,
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these are worth listening to. It's interesting. It's a, it will be very easy to butcher the topic of
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air traffic and aviation without solid interviews. And this is very broad. They talk to controller,
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but they also talk to leaders in the FAA, former FAA chair, and some other very important people
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that know about the system. And it gets into a little bit of the of the current
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budget concerns and all the things that are current come up as well. But
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instead of buttering it, they did a good job of getting a balanced approach to the to the
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situation. And I wasn't upset listening to it, which I think I was expecting to be. Yeah.
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Yeah, I think we're conditioned to that because most everything that talks about aviation tends to
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just be kind of way off. Right. I imagine doctors that watch, if they ever have to sit down and watch
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a medical show on TV, you know, it's probably a couple of minutes before I can't watch this. I
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can't, I can't watch it. I'm walking away. Yeah. You know, it's so wrong. Right. Right. I did not do
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that with this show. They did a good job. So I have a ton of, let me just say this. I have a ton of
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respect for shows like this that can take a topic that they don't. They're not controllers or pilots.
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And and it can be listened to by people in the industry and say, yeah, you got that right.
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And how much work that must take to get it right and to truly understand something. And what
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it does is it gives you confidence in their other topics that you might not know anything about.
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And couldn't say one way or the other, but it gives you a trust that, wow, you really are doing
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your research here. You know the topic that I know. So I'm going to trust you to know the ones
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that I don't. Very good point. So hats off to them that I think that takes a ton of work, a ton of
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research, they must have a whole team of people like really for real. They must.
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This wasn't done over 90. They spent time on this too. Right. Right. Well done. They continue. It's
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just awesome to know that our lives I read that part. Overall, these two podcasts are well worth
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less. And I think OB listeners know how much of it. No much of it. But I think the interview can
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be a great share for non pilots to better understand the dedication and commitment. The controller,
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the interview, this is my opinion that was super high energy. We would get along with them. They had
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a very good attitude. They live. They loved doing their job. And they loved doing it correctly. And
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safely and took pride in it. And it shows in the interview. Yeah.
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So thank you. Thank you. ATC Alpha Golf Lima above ground level. A pilot not an ATC insider.
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If you want to check that show out, it's in every podcast player worldwide. It's called
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Freakonomics. And the episode is 645 and 646. Check them out. Cool. Very good. You want the last one?
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All right. Number three from Bing, when I'd out that Oscar, my co-tail. Hello, hello,
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a G and R H. Well, flying. Well, flying people at, I don't know if this is a code word or not.
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I don't know. At an express airlines up and down the west coast today, there were a lot of confused
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radio interactions. Maybe because people were impacted by last night's full moon. Maybe there
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are. I'm telling you, there are some days in the Traycon, especially where we're like, what is
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happening? What are these people doing? I don't understand. My highlight is the poor PC12 in the
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attached audio, though, especially the long silence starting at a minute and a half, which felt like
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a couple of minutes to me. I don't know. Or I don't want to throw any shade on the controllers or
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the pilot. So no need to play the audio. But how does this happen? Shouldn't there be something on
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the controller soap with the arrival airport instead of this other airport? Is it just confirmation
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bias because the PC12s also frequently go into this main airport, best Oscar, my co-tail. Okay,
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so I hadn't intended to play the audio. No, it's fine. I remember that now too. It's all the story.
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That's what we need to know. Right. So here's basically what happens in this is that we're in a
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Traycon for a Charlie on the West Coast. This PC12, the audio is real grainy too. It's hard to,
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it's not super good quality audio. But this Pilates is inbound to what I'm assuming is a smaller,
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either a Delta or a satellite. I didn't look at it. But not to the main Charlie. They're not going to
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the main Charlie. And the controller says, hey, do you have the airport? They must be close together,
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though. Yeah, almost like cigarette and try it. I felt like yeah, they must be close. And the
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runways are not the same, but they're generally sort of pointed in the within 20 or 30 degrees of
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each other, which would be easy to confuse. Totally. And he says, you have the field. Yeah, we have it.
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Okay. And he says clear visual approach to 28 or whatever, 28 ride or I don't know into the Charlie
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and the pilots is there's this pause. And he's like, no, we're not going there. We're going to
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this other place to three two or three one. And he's like, oh, okay,
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28,000, you know, stop descending. Do a different thing now.
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And so the question is, how does that happen? Is it confirmation bias? Yes. Yeah, I think there
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is some of that happening, especially if you have a company or a fleet that goes into this Charlie
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all the time. This would happen to us if our sky specimen people at Coat Factory went somewhere else.
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There was a time when that airport was closed. Remember, they were all coming here.
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Yeah. And we would get that arrival on the mid from the west. Super high.
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Done to newsflash their landing net try add. Yeah. And oh, it's definitely an issue because there's
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some purple box in the way. Yes. Yes. So you get into a routine and now they're going somewhere else.
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He's asking about, let's see, how does it, shouldn't there be something on the scope?
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Yeah, you would think so that this would be in the scratch pad, but I can easily see how that
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might be put in incorrectly by this bias that maybe it's busy, maybe you didn't pull the strip
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immediately and look at the strip. You just saw the call sign. This person goes to the Charlie
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every time. I don't know. I can't see how it happened, but the point here is just like in
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the Air Force one incident, the system worked. It worked because there, because instead of saying
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clear for the visual approach to the airport or something, you're required to say clear visual
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approach the runway. Yeah. And the pilot goes, oh, well, hold on a minute. That doesn't, that's not
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right. And so that's why it just sort of highlights why some of this phraseology exists, why it's
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important to follow it. Why saying all of it is important because now we can distinguish the pilot
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can say, whoa, that's different than what I thought we were doing here. And that's the part I want
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to say something about. Okay, it would have been very easy for the pilot to just keep on trucking
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to the airport, the opposite airport, the one that the controller did not expect them to go to.
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Yeah. And just assume, well, that's not what he meant or just ignored it, expectation bias.
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Yeah. And they're going because they've been to this other airport. This controller may not be
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used to working this model or this company to this airport, but I've been there. Boop, I'm going.
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And then it turns into a conflict and at cigarette and triad, if you were aimed north eastbound
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from the southwest, the airports, ones at one o'clock and ones at 11 o'clock, that could be messed up.
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Sure. And it will cause a problem when you cross finals. If you're landing at cigarette and not
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landing at triad, that will definitely raise some collusion alerts. So yeah, I think the pilot did
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a good job of recognizing it in the audio and the posmate, but they thought before they keyed up.
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Right. Something didn't sound right. Yeah, we have minutes. Wait, did he just say this?
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Yes, he did. That's wrong. Right. So recognizing it is good. Yes. This should also be
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on the pilot side, your readbacks are important because it gives the controller an opportunity
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to verify. Okay. Because I have heard, you know, I say clear visual approach runway five, right?
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And the pilots will read back clear for the visual going to tower.
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I don't like it. Yeah. So that didn't give me the opportunity to check this back and forth.
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So a good, full, proper readback is important. You're going to hear people say, well, you're not
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required to read all that back. You know, I think that's a mistake. Give both parties an opportunity.
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That's why we have certain phrase, all of you, we have to use. That's why your readback is important.
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It allows us to make a check on that and prevent things from happening like could have happened here.
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Mm-hmm.
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Those things are built into the system to help recognize and prevent errors from human error,
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mistakes, people make mistakes. So let's put a system in place that helps catch those.
spk_0
Well said. Okay. All right. That's it. All right. We've do our best to respond to
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support feedback and let you know when you'll be on an upcoming show. We are one step closer to
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solving our email nightmare. Okay. Huge strides yesterday. So for those of you that were on the show,
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some of you got replies. I don't some of those emails went out and you got a thing that said,
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you're going to be on the show. Some did not. I'm still getting notices. Hey, this email isn't sent.
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It's still here. It's still here. Like, hey, hey, hey, I'm like stop popping up on my screen here.
spk_0
Oh, yeah. You're going to have to, meaning you have to get on the phone for a technical
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blind leading somewhat can see person. You're much better at this stuff. No.
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Anyway, we'll one step closer. So that's about to be solved for good.
spk_0
For good. Okay. So anything add before we go to chat?
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I did that. Closing out episode 404 of opposing bases air traffic talk.
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Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf. Goodbye, everyone.
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Drop. Opposing bases is a listener supported ad-free weekly podcast.
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The views expressed on the show do not reflect the opinions or official positions of the FAA or
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Penguin Airlines. Episodes are for entertainment purposes only and are not intended to replace
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blind instruction to get on time access bonus content and full archive access.
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Join the crew at opposing bases dot supercast dot com.
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Find out their germised rules.
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Yeah.