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Relationship Renewal: Commitment and Forgiveness in Elul (Bonus Episode)
In this bonus episode of Intimate Judaism, Rabbi Scott Khan and Tali Rosenbaum explore the themes of commitment and forgiveness during the month of Elul. They discuss how Jewish marriage parallels the...
Relationship Renewal: Commitment and Forgiveness in Elul (Bonus Episode)
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Intimate Judaism deals with sensitive topics and uses explicit language.
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Listener discretion is advised.
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Welcome to Intimate Judaism.
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I'm Rabbi Scott Khan.
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Together in happiness, the Ahibba Oshar, is a resource center promoting awareness, recognition
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and advocacy of the critical importance and benefit of marriage education, enrichment
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and coaching at different stages of the life cycle.
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It's designed for Jewish couples in Israel and in English speaking countries.
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Their programs include marriage education, enrichment resources, courses and workshops.
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Last at Lul, my co-host, Tali Rosenbaum, presented a lecture for the Together in Happiness
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Organization about Lul and relationship repair.
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In that lecture, Tali discusses how Jewish marriage mirrors the relationship of the Jewish
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people with God and draws upon the concepts of Chuvah repentance to provide a template
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for relational repair and marriage.
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And we're pleased to present that talk today.
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We'll get to it in just a moment.
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First, check out our website intimate Judaism.com for the full podcast archive, show notes,
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a free mens McVachek list and more.
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Please subscribe to Intimate Judaism wherever you get your podcasts, rate and review and leave
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a comment as well.
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We're also working on additional projects so that Intimate Judaism can expand our reach
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further.
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So tell people about Intimate Judaism and share the podcast so that we can continue to
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grow our audience.
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And finally, we're very excited to announce that we've been working all summer on a special
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Intimate Judaism series for young people in their late teens and early 20s.
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We're continuing to work on it and expect to release it sometime after the haggim.
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Go to intimate Judaism.com or the Intimate Judaism Facebook page for more details in the
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coming weeks.
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And now, as the premiere episode of the eighth season of Intimate Judaism and with gratitude
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to Together in Happiness for their cooperation, we're pleased to present this lecture to you
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during the month of Elul.
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I'm Susan Bar and I am the president and founder of Together in Happiness via Hava Oshar.
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And we want to welcome back those who have been our previous attendees and webinars, but a special
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welcome to our new attendees.
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And of course, a very special welcome to our presenter tonight, Tally Huda-Rose and Bum,
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and which you will have the pleasure of hearing in a few moments.
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But for the benefit of those that are not familiar with Together in Happiness,
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I just want to share a few words of introduction.
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Together in Happiness was founded in 2011 where a resource center promoting awareness,
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recognition and advocacy of the critical importance of marriage education and enrichment
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in coaching. And we work with Jewish couples across the whole compendium of engaged to
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married people for many, many years. And in Israel and in English-speaking countries,
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marriage education and enrichment is essentially provides skills that are been associated with
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happy and healthy marriages. It's not therapy. It generally uses a manual taught by a trained
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facilitator and generally working in groups and discussing subjects such as communication,
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conflict resolution, expectations, problem solving, and how to basically manage
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even arguments without fighting. And the question of who can benefit everyone, a society benefits
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and especially those that run the gamut from engaged to expecting couples to marry couples.
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But again, our focus is on the couple. And it is the couple that we aim all of our resources
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towards. And why? Because the skills that are provided essentially are intended to make the
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couple the most integrated that focus on initially discuss the weaknesses but talk about the strengths,
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build the partnership up with the idea that whatever cemented relationship you have, it is
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beneficial, reciprocal benefit to all of society. But essentially, it's again, the couple is part
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of a family. And early on, people talk about the family of origin because it is so critical.
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The more family dynamics that enter into the relationship, it means that we have the opportunity
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to stabilize the family. And we've seen what's happened during the war. How many families have
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been negatively affected? So the idea is the more we focus on marriage education to cement the
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family, then we as a society benefit. And so on that basis, I want to now present our illustrious speaker
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and presenter, Tally Huda-Rosen, and we are thrilled to have you. She is an individual and
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couples therapist as well as a certified sex therapist and sex therapist supervisor. She is the
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co-occurve book I am from Ible-Aubed, which is a guide to enhance mental intimacy for our married
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couples. And she's also the co-host with Rabbi Scott Khan of a very popular podcast series
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Intimate Judaism. And so without further ado, because I'm so excited, I would like to turn over
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our webinar. Thank you so much. I am really excited as well. I'm excited to talk about the month
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of allel and to talk about the use of our sources, our tradition, as a template for relational repair.
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So I'm going to talk a little bit about our relationships, our relationships with ourselves,
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our relationships with God, and our relationships with our partners. And I'm going to talk about how
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our tradition really does offer sources and a template for this idea of relational harmony.
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Relational harmony is not about never having conflicts. It's about having a way to resolve those
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conflicts. And as we kind of go into the sources today and go into some skills, I think what I'm
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going to say is I'm going to talk for roughly about 40, 45 minutes. If there is something really
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urgent in the middle that you need to ask, I will be interrupted. Otherwise, I think it would be
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great to just kind of listen to the presentation and we'll have time for Q and A afterwards. So
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whether you're listening now live or whether you're going to be listening later to the recording,
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I really would like to thank you for your attention before we end.
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Okay, so, the thing about allel I can share just for my own childhood, at least up until about
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third grade, I was terrified. And part of why I was terrified was because we used to get
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first in kindergarten, it was to color and then later it was the scale with the meets
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code in the Ave Road. And the feeling as a child was that we had to have more meets
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vote than Ave Road because then if we don't, something really terrible is going to happen.
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And I think that at least at school, this wasn't what I was raised with at home, but at least
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at school, I think that there was kind of this fear-based approach, which I later really had to
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heal in myself. And fortunately, I had the resources and the home-based education, which
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and time and wisdom, which allowed me to be able to kind of move from that, I would say,
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terrifying and insecure attachment with God and with this idea of Chuvah and forgiveness and
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what it's really all about. And something which is more based on integrating the different
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relationships and creating a secure attachment with God. And why is the secure attachment with God
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so important? I would say that if we believe that we have God's love, if we believe that the
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commitment to one another, the commitment between God and the Jewish people is there.
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And the ability and the template to be nurtured and provided for, but also be able to repair
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the ruptures, then we can really approach the relational repair with more self-love, self-compassion
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and the expectation that we'll be understood, will be forgiven. So with that, I'm going to talk about
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these different relationships. And I think that anybody who praised on during the haggim, during the
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month of T. Shrein, also anybody who engages in the preparation during the whole month of L.
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But first of all, L. is a time of preparation. And that already gives us a message that,
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you know, we want to be in a mindset which is appropriate for being able to engage with repair.
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We don't want to engage with repair when we are overly aroused or overly reactive. We need time.
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And so the month of L. gives us time to reflect, it gives us time to get to the, get to the haggim
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at a more, in a place where we can, I would say, integrate our wise mind, our thoughts, our logic,
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along with our emotions in a way that is, I would say, more regulated. And that's a really
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important way to stand before God in all of those relationships. So for example, we talk about
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God as king. And I think that approaching God as king means approaching God with, with a certain
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amount of humility, with a certain amount of respect. And I also think that that really helps us
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with our own development of self-emility and self-respect. We talk about God as the Father,
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of He knew. And I think that in that relationship, we can draw upon our expectation for nurturing,
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for forgiveness for caring. And that also helps us develop our own self-inner relationship of
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nurturing. Of course, there's also God as judge. And whereas God as judge is probably one of the most
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kind of scary ways of interacting with that, we need that too. And we need that in ourselves.
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In other words, we also have to have some healthy amount of what we would call super ego, of a way
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to kind of be somewhat self-aware, somewhat self-critical, not to a fault. But enough to be able to
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say, wait a second, this isn't right. What I did wasn't right. I have to do better.
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And that's all part of the self-awareness that we bring through our relationship with God,
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that we develop in our relationship with ourselves and ultimately with the people who we love.
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So there's also, and the relationship that I'm probably going to talk about the most this
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evening, is the relationship between God and the Jewish people depicted, certainly in the song of
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songs in Shirhas Shireen. And we're talking today about Elil Anila Dodi, the Dodi leaf from Shirhas Shireen.
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And the relationship that's depicted between lovers as an allegory, but a very important one,
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because within the the the plain meaning of Shirhas Shireen, we learn many values around what it
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means to be in a loving relationship. And in particular, the idealized version of that loving
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relationship, the never-ending courtship, the passion, the way that the lovers idealize one another.
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Why is that important for me to say? Because if we now move for a second into our secular
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culture from which we can also learn a lot, I'm going to talk about the triangle of love,
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which was introduced in the 80s by a psychologist named Robert Sternberg. And he talked about Romantic
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love as having three important elements, commitment, intimacy, and passion, starting with passion,
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because we're talking about a Western society. So two people meet each other, they fall in love,
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they probably will consummate that love with physical intimacy, depending on the values.
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And then in that stage, there's a lot of idealization, there's a lot of passion.
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And there's a lot of, you know, my lover can do no wrong. It's very similar to what we see
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in the passion stage of Shirhas Shireen, in a sense. We're also going to talk about intimacy
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and commitment as very important parts of our relationship with God, which mirror what we can learn
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in our relationships, in our romantic and our love relationships with our partners. So
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in the passion phase, when, you know, we don't stay there forever, we don't stay in the butterfly
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stage forever. The next stage is intimacy. If a relationship lasts long enough, the intimacy stage
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is a stage of knowing. It's a stage of really getting to know one another, sharing your deepest,
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your histories, your deepest feelings. And also being able to have conflict and create repair,
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also being able to no longer idealize our partners, see them as imperfect, but love them anyway.
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And then when that, you know, when that survives, usually the couple will want to take it to the
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next stage, which is commitment. And I think that all three of these stages are certainly mirrored
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in our relationship with God. And sometimes we can't always take the, even though we can always
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take the commitment for granted, we can't always take the security for granted. And this is also true
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if there has been infidelity in our relationship, that trust needs to be rebuilt. But even for that,
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we have a template in our sources. If you read the Tanach, you'll often see where God gets angry,
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and he compares the Jewish people to being, you know, infidelity. But that can be repaired as well.
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So this is certainly a time of learning how to reflect, of learning how to make this space.
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You know, we talk about renewal. We know all is a very strong concept in our tradition, because,
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you know, we have holidays, we have times for things, we make space for things.
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It doesn't always work out exactly. I mean, this year, you know, we make space for being sad about
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about the destruction of the temple, you know, during the three weeks in Tisha Baha'uv is a sad day.
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Okay, you know, traditionally, Sinha Tura is a happy day. This year, we're going to have a harder
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time being happy on Sinha Tura because of the war and because of the fact that there's a rupture.
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There's a rupture. This is supposed to be a happy day. And I think that this is a good example
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to tell us how things don't always work exactly according to prediction. We have a marital rhythm.
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Even the Tahrat-Hame-Shbaha, even the Mikva and the two weeks on, the two weeks off, there's a rhythm.
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However, that also doesn't work out so perfectly. It isn't always happen that you're at the peak of
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your desire when you go to the Mikva. It doesn't always happen that you're not interested when you're
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in your time of needa. Sometimes things don't work out exactly. And the fact that we have our
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tradition to show us that that's okay. We have an ability to deal with things. We have an ability
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to repair. And so what we're going to talk about is that in relationships as well, we have harmony.
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We have conflict. And then we have opportunity to repair. And it's more important than having conflict.
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Conflict is not the problem. We always get into conflict. If there's no conflict, we're dealing
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with avoidance. And that can be a problem. So when a couple comes in and they says, we have no
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problem. Why are you here? Well, they might give a reason, but not really acknowledging that there
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are conflicts is a way to avoid not only the conflict, but it's also a way to avoid the
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opportunity for repair. So we want to be able to ride the roller coaster of that rhythm of
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marital life, which will include conflict and will include repair. So going back to
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Anila Dodeva, Dodele. I think that we can learn. And I'm going to hear mention, I know that
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Sarah Susan, you often talk about your parents and how you made this organization in their honor.
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So I'm going to just mention my father, who's going to have his 10th York site coming up
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Arab, um, young Kipper. And my father was a rabbi and a professor of Talmud. And he really lived
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very much the Torah and all the values that we learned growing up, even though we learned to
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appreciate humanistic values, they always had sources that came from the Torah. And so what I'm
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going to be talking about when I talk about what I learned about love and the relationship between
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and how romantic love mirrors the relationship between God and man. I'm going to attribute these
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teachings to my father, uh, rabbi doctorate's for you, who'd help. So and by the way, some of these
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things I just went and went back and listened to the speech from my wedding that he gave us at my
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at our wedding. And it really resonated four years later, but you know, it's never too late. So
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the the the concepts that we learn from our sources about marital commitment, specifically what we
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can learn from Shira Shireem. And I'm going to go through that is that what we learn is commitment,
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exclusivity, sanctity, and mechanisms of repair. We can all find that in our sources and they can
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be all applied to our true love relationships. Um, Shira Shireem is a very eroticized version
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of the Jewish people as relationship with God, but it's eroticized for a reason. It's because we
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as Jews highly value that aspect of the relationship, the the the intimate aspect of the relationship.
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In fact, the holy of holies is fraught with erotic symbolism. And Shira Shireem indicates that
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human love and passion and desire serve as a template for understanding the marital relationship
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with God. So it's got to be important. We have to really value it. So let's start with commitment.
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You know, the marital ceremony very much mirrors the giving of the Torah, okay? Verastich Lilo,
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Lama Erestich Lepidzetic, Ubi Mishpat, Ubi Chesa Verachami. This gives us a feeling that the
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commitment is there. We don't have to worry that God will abandon us. Erestich is from the word
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Morashah, from from legacy. And what we know is that when we are in a long term relationship,
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we begin to develop a legacy and we pass that legacy down to our children and to our grandchildren.
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I shall bind you to me forever with our shared intimacy and with our shared passion. And the
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passion-based relationship that's depicted in Shira Shireem is about idealism. It's about romance.
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The marriage is never, the relationship has never consummated. It's an unending pursuit. And through
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this we learn, I'm going to say three important concepts. We learn the importance of marriage as
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an equal relationship and not a hierarchy. We learn about individuality of each partner
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along with the concept of unity. And we also learn the concept of consent and not taking
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at each other for granted. One example of each thing of each concept I'll highlight and then
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we'll continue. So how do we know that marriage is not supposed to be higher-archal? And I'm now
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not talking so much about the legal aspect of marriage. Where it's very much written out what each
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person's responsibility and obligation is. Talking about the romantic part of the relationship.
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Anila Dodi, the Dodi Lee, is poetically and symbolically symbiotic.
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Not hierarchical. It doesn't mean that I possess my lover. It means that I don't possess or acquire
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or have the rights to. It means we yearn to be together and we live for one another.
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An ideal marriage, therefore, is an unending courtship. We don't take each other for granted.
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We don't possess each other. We don't acquire possessive rights. Not over our partner. And not over
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our partner's privacy. We ask. We'll get to consent. Individuality with unity. What does that mean?
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Are we really one? You know, we talk a lot about being one. And there is very much space to talk
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about the unity. What we talk about in Shaba Brahat, two of the Brahat. It's interesting. One of the
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Brahat ends with Haqat'an im Haqala, the Haqat'an with the Haqala. And one of the Brahat ends
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with Haqat'an ve Haqala, the Haqat'an and the Haqala. We recognize that we want to rejoice in
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the unit, but we also want to rejoice in the ability for the Haqat'an and the Haqala to remain
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two separate individuals. There's no surrender. There's no conquest. The couple must learn to
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live together, but leave space for one another. Finally, I'm going to talk about the idea of consent
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and invitation. And then we'll kind of go into a little bit more of the concepts of around repair.
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So in Shira Shireem, the beloved invites for lover to Laganau, Yavou Dodi Laganau. And what we learn
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from our sages, Hazal, is that a man is not allowed to enter the Khupa or his love chamber unless
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he's given permission by the Khala. She must first say Yavou Dodi Laganau. And I think also,
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it's important to say in our real lives, is this a good time to talk? Are you available to me now?
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Khuldo Ditofek, you know, we must learn that we don't, even as marital partners, we not go on the
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door, we never just walk in. And these are the messages that I learned growing up when I learned
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about romantic love from my parents and from their examples. Okay, so what I'm going to move. So now
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that we have spoken a little bit about the love parts of the relationship, we're going to go into
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the conflict parts of relationships and how to create relational repair. But I also, I can't
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just jump right into that without talking about how here too, our sources, and I'm going to move
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away from the sources of Tanakh and talk about the rhombom for a second, my monides. Because my
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monides is really, we all, everybody learns about my monides, you know, the laws of Chuvha. And we
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all learn it. I mean, growing up, this is probably the basic thing that we learn that there are three
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elements, Harata, regret, Kabbalah, alaati, taking on for the future, and Vidue, which is verbal confession.
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Where the person actually verbalizes these ideas and says, you know, yeah, I take accountability,
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I take responsibility, I do do this. And again, it's really helpful to recognize how self-compassion
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and self-awareness and self-forgiveness can be very important to this process. Because when you're
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if you can't forgive yourself, then you're going to have a hard time feeling like you've been forgiven.
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So these are the elements of repairing all relationships, this kind of template that we have for Chuvha.
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What does it mean to be truly remorseful, as opposed to just saying, you know, I said I was sorry,
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I don't understand why you're still upset with me, I said I was sorry. Most people really don't
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respond with the feelings of being understood when the partner says, I'm sorry, but, you know,
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I was right, but I'm saying I'm sorry. That doesn't do it. What, what, what asking forgiveness is,
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and getting forgiveness is, is a much deeper process of reflection, self-reflection,
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vulnerability, and the real, the real preparedness to be exposed. You know, that's when you pray,
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it's exposing. When you stand before God, it's exposing. So, and also, what does it mean,
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Kabbalah al-Hahatid? What does it really mean to take things on for the future? Does it mean that
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you're never ever going to do it again? Well, probably not. That's, but when we're saying that we're
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not going to do it, we really want to mean that we're really going to try not to do it. Not because
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we don't like to do it, but because we know how hurtful it is. And if it's hurtful to you, I don't
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want to do things that I know are going to be hurtful to you. So, it really means commitment,
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again, the word commitment, but it's commitment to make the change. And okay, so what is the verbal
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confession about? The Vidoy? Well, I think that's really about communicating to your partner
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that you acknowledge their pain. You acknowledge how what happened or what you did. And again, intent
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and impact are two different things. Very often, there was absolutely no intent, but when you say,
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look, I didn't mean it, right? I just had the other day, telling you a quick story. Couple came in,
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and she was in the car with her girlfriend, and they had just gotten into a little almost accident,
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and she was in the middle of saying to her girlfriend, oh my gosh, how did you know to steer me
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to the left? And we got out of it just on time. And they were a little bit activated.
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They stopped pick up her husband, who was after like three or four days of New Lune.
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He gets into the car, and in the back seat, she's in the front seat with her friend, and they
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continue talking. So of course, when they come in, there's, you know, there's hints saying,
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there's her saying, I don't understand how you don't realize what happened to me. I keep
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trying to tell you that I was almost in this accident, and you don't seem to really realize it. And he's
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saying, you know, I get into the car after three days of me, Lulee, and you don't even say hello to me.
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And she's saying, well, of course I couldn't say hello to you. I was, I just got into an almost accident.
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And so, you know, there was this kind of, every person had to be right, but to be able to sit with
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each person and get the other one to put on the other person's shoes for a minute, stand in their
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shoes. What do you think it was for your husband to get into the car after four days of me, Lulee,
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and not even get a hello from you? How do you think he felt? And of course, the way that we get
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triggered in our daily lives has a lot to do with the way we were triggered, the way we were wounded
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as children. So of course, her husband is a boy of six siblings, the only boy, only sisters.
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His lifelong experience of feeling left out is, you know, very raw for him. And this certainly
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took him back there. While for her, her, you know, she always craved her father's attention, and you
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know, he was never around. And so, her trigger or her injury was that, how could he forget?
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How could he forget that she was in this almost accident? So again, it's really not about being
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right. It's about, and it's not about, you know, it's about feeling safe. It's about knowing that when
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you can feel vulnerable, your partner will say, wow, I'd get it. I really do get it. And there's a
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genuineness in this process. There is authenticity. There's real curiosity. Really importantly,
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there's respect. Again, when we stand before God, we stand with respect. We also, you know, have
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the ask. And, you know, we, we throughout the prayers also pop in with more appreciation.
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We have to remember that. We, we have to remember that the relationship is an ongoing
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investment. And that we want to also have the positive interactions going on because those negative
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interactions are going to happen. And this is true in our romantic relationships, but also in our
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relationships with our parents and with our friends. And with everybody, we want to really show
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gratitude. It happens to be a very good relational skill is showing gratitude.
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So, so all of these ideas are really relevant in all relationships, these ideas of the Mimana
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Dean approach to Chuva. But it's not easy. And it's not easy because it feels exposed. It feels
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vulnerable. And also when you are trying to restore a relationship with a person whom you've heard,
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who, with a person whom you've injured, and you really do want them to forgive you, it's not
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enough to just say you're sorry. You also have to be able to go deeper into what was their process.
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What did they experience? And people are, you know, they tend to be defensive about that because,
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you know, a lot of times people come into my office and they think that I'm going to be the judge.
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And I'm going to tell them who's right and who's wrong, which I never do. And, you know, they think
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that if they say, okay, fine, you're right, you win. They've created room here. And that's really not
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what happens because it's not about saying you're right or you're wrong. It's about engaging with
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a real feeling of remorse, of regret, of making a commitment, and taking accountability. And that's
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where the real repair begins. And when it happens, you can feel it. It's really very different. It comes
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with a feeling, a sensory feeling in your body that your partner gets it. And, you know, you want to
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forgive them. You feel like, or the other way around, you feel forgiven. It's an authentic feeling
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over regret. It's an authentic feeling of empathy for what the other person experienced. And it's a
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resolution of conflict that's not coming from a judicial point of view of who's right and who's
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wrong, but from a human or emotional or psychological point of view, because it doesn't matter at the
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end of the day about right or wrong, it's about understanding how your partner got activated,
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which brings me to this idea of activation. So I'm going to spend a few minutes kind of talking
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about the idea of relational wise mind and why we need to be in relational wise mind in order to
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have the best, most effective milieu for repair. Repair is very difficult to, you know, it's very
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difficult to create repair when there's activation. So what do I mean by activation? Well, we all know
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what activation means because we've been spending, you know, we spend a year in a war. And so we know
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what chronic stress feels like. And we know what it feels like when we hear a siren and we know
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what it feels like when we hear bad news or we go into kind of this stress response. And just like
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we become threatened by a car coming too fast or an alarm, in relationships, we also feel threatened.
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We feel threatened, but by more kind of like emotional threats, the most common one being the fear
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of abandonment because as human beings, the first real conflict we experienced was abandonment when
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they pulled us out of the womb into like this room that's cold and and and we cry. Our first
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cry that we have is about abandonment from and then, you know, then we get soothed and we're okay.
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And then we kind of enter in this life of crying and being anxious and being soothed. So
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this is also a relational thing, this idea of being able to soothe yourself and also be soothed.
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Soothing is also relational through co co co co soothing, but there's also your own learning how
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to self-suit. The why is it important to learn how to self-suit? When we are activated, when we are
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in a stress response, when we are feel threatened, when we are angry, when we are anxious, we go into our
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fight flight or freeze or please, but we'll stick with fight flight for now responses.
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A fight flight, meaning that we might go into an activation or an elevation of conflict,
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yelling at each other, devaluing, criticizing, all the things that we all do once in a while, but they're
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what we're going to have to end up repairing. Because we'll say things that we don't mean when we're
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in that activated state, we'll say things that we regret. We are what we'll call above the window
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of tolerance because we're basically in our survival brain. Survival brain is an important place to
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be when you're trying to run away to save yourself from an actual threat. But when you're in your
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survival brain, the thing about survival adaptations is that they're great for staying alive, but they're
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not very good, relationally. And so what we want to do relationally is engage in our wise brains
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in our window of tolerance. So what do a lot of couples do? This is a real common scenario, as we
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have the very anxious, you know, anxiously attached partner that will kind of rev things up and
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start to fight and say, you know, don't leave. I'm talking to you. And then there's the shutdown
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partner who's going to be more avoidin, who's going to be more like I need to leave. And so, you
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know, we have a lot of those different dynamics. Part of being a couple's therapy is learning
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dances, learning a lot of the different dances that couples will dance in their dynamic.
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So one of the really important concepts in relational repair is don't try to do it when you're both
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activated. Take the time out, go your separate ways, engage in self-soothing, whether it's going for
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a run or talking to a friend or whatever it is. And then get back together and create the space.
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Again, we're going to go back to renewal and creating space and everything that we said before
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about the month of LL reflecting. We're going to go back to creating the space for repair.
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And making sure that, okay, as we begin this process of repair, we're in our, we're able to,
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you know, reach into our cognitive brains, we're able to reach the vulnerable emotions that are
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under, you know, the anger or the anxiety. And we also want to understand that there's two
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narratives. And because there's two narratives, we want to avoid crosstalk. So the way that I like
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to do it and the way that I teach couples to do it is to take turns. One person is the, you know,
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you can call it the giver, the sender, the initiator, depending on what, you know, there's so many
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different therapy styles and a mago and, you know, the emotionally focused and there's, there's
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differentiations there. There's all sorts of, but they all at the end of the day are really about
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how to repair in a way that decreases this idea of attack and defensiveness and, and reactivity
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and goes into the deeper layers of what's happening emotionally. So I'm going to start with another
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story of another couple. And this is a true story. And that's why I love it because you can't make
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this stuff up. But this couple came to me 15 minutes late and they walked in really, really activated,
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triggered and upset. What had happened was it was raining and he, he, he had, they were both at work
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and she said that she was going to wait outside and he was going to leave his office. He was going to
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pick her up from her office and they were going to come to me. He had a boss that he didn't, he had
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told his boss who was a woman by the way that he had a Tuesday at 12 appointment every week and she
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knew about it. But for some reason she said, you know, he had to be in this conference call and he
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said, look, I have to leave and she said, no, you can't leave. You have to be on the conference call
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even in the car. So he was, he was feeling very stressed and was on the conference call. Meanwhile,
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she's waiting outside. She left her office and she's waiting outside. It's raining and she keeps
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calling him and she keeps getting call waiting and he's not answering and she gets into the car
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slept. You know, when he finally arrives, she gets into the car slams the door and just starts
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like tearing him down how dare you be late and he shuts down. They come to my office and what we,
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you know, after just like doing some, you know, breathing and let's calm down. What we were able to
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recognize was what they were able to talk about and this took a while, but it was, you know, just the
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perfect way to end the session. She was able to talk about her how every Sunday she would go to the
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JCC to learn swimming and every Sunday her father would pick her up and every Sunday he would be
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half an hour late, 45 minutes late. She remembered those days all the other parents came to pick up
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the sheet standing out there alone and it really brought her back to that feeling of abandonment.
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He on the other hand had a very overbearing critical mother has a very overbearing boss
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and then his wife gets into the car and starts nagging at him. So that created the triggers and the
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shutdown in him and when they were really each able to understand one another's narrative rather than,
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you know, who's right, who's wrong because there was no right or wrong in this scenario.
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They were able to create repair. So what do we need to be able to do this?
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Well, for one thing, we have to be able to take down our defenses and again, this is how we stand
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before God. You know, we talk about that even in the prayers, you know, we stand before you with
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vulnerability and that's so important in our relationships because we need to be vulnerable.
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We need to be vulnerable enough to be the one to say, you know, once somebody has to also initiate
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repair, somebody has to say, can we not fight? You know, can we, can we love each other again?
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So, you know, this idea of being able to say, you know, I'm hoping that I can appeal to your
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compassion, to your empathy. I'm hoping that you can be understanding. I'm hoping that you can
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forgive me. I'm hoping that you can hug me and love me again. These are very vulnerable things to
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say and people who are not securely attached or people who have learned all sorts of methods
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of defending against that vulnerability will have a much harder time to get there. And so
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getting there is a function of the secure attachment. The more the partner can be there in a safe
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way to provide a secure response to that kind of vulnerability, the more that the relational
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healing is also creating individual healing for the partner. I hope that was, I hope I communicated
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that well. So, you know, I feel badly, I feel badly about what I've done, I feel bad about the
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distance between us. These are all very vulnerable things to say and it's also kind of vulnerable
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to give the forgiveness to some people in the time. They're not ready. So, you know, being able to
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say it's not, it's being able to not be defensive or reactive to talk about demonstrating what's
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right, but rather, and knowing that we had our reasons, here's the thing, a lot of people react
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defensively because they feel so guilty. Now, when you tell your partner what hurt you and your
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partner says, yeah, you're right, I'm a terrible husband or I'm a terrible wife. That actually
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doesn't do it for me. You're making it about you and I don't need for you to hit yourself and say
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you're so bad. That doesn't help the relational repair. So, we need to separate these concepts,
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we need to separate the idea of intent and impact and we need to tell ourselves when our partner
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is trying to tell us what they feel and soon I'm going to give you kind of that roadmap for how to
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talk about what you feel. We have to remind ourselves, I'm not being blamed right now. I'm not
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being accused right now. I'm not on trial right now. You know, if the self-sue thing is very,
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very important because if we're in a place of defensiveness, if we feel criticized, if we feel
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attacked, we're not going to be able to greet our partner's expression with empathy. So,
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there's rules here. There's rules for the person who is trying to talk about their feelings.
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Rule number one, talk about your feelings and talk about the vulnerable feelings. You could talk
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about feeling overwhelmed or alone or left out or agitated or annoyed or impatient or resentful
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or mistrustful or insecure or defeated or lonely or pessimistic or there's so many ways that you
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could talk about your feelings without saying, you know, you did this and you made me feel this way
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and you and the minute you kind of go into the what you did, your partner is automatically going to
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go on the defensive and not be able to hear what it is for you. So, being able to separate, you know,
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first I'm going to tell you how I feel and what you're going to do is you're going to listen
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and you're going to reflect, you're going to mirror, you're going to validate and hopefully empathize
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and then you're going to hear me and you know, we'll do the same thing. And what actually that happens
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is that relationship rupture, attachment rupture can actually in the aftermath of repair,
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the relationship gets stronger, it gets deeper, it gets more resilient because that's the intimacy,
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that's the knowing, that's the exposing in a safe environment that you need in order to
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create repair. So, it allows you to take accountability, it allows you to lower your defensive because
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you feel safe and secure. The more fights you have that end up kind of ending well, the more you're
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able to end well in the future. And this is unfortunately not going to work if you're in a
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fear based relationship, if you really feel like you're in a higher article relationship, if your
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partner is utilizing some form of leverage over you, then this sort of emotional exchange can't
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really take place because you're not feeling safe. And if you want to be vulnerable, you're going
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to be afraid that your vulnerability is going to be used against you. So, you know, we really want to
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make sure, certainly I as a couple's therapist want to make sure that there isn't that hierarchy. And
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to take place because safety and security and commitment, as we said before in the beginning,
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is really at the core of this process. So, how do we create that security? We listen, we mirror,
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we say, you know, did I get that right? I'm hearing you say that you felt alone when, you know,
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I left you in the kitchen with all the dishes and I went to take my call and even though we had
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talked about it and even though you knew I had this call and even though all these other reasons,
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yeah, it's still kicked in your your your abandonment anxiety kicked in your memories of being a kid
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and always being left alone in the kitchen to clean up all everyone else to play the game on Shabbat.
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Like, I get it. I really get it for you. And again, not going to the place of, oh, I'm so bad.
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Because, you know, we call that a narcissistic injury. It doesn't mean you're narcissistic, but it
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means that, you know, you're just kind of being down on yourself and that is not what your partner needs.
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So, again, the ability to apologize, taking turns, there's no wrong or right, it's not about true
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or false, it's not about you. Remember when your partner's talking, you have to remind yourself,
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it's not about me right now, it's about really trying to focus on my partner's feelings.
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You want to have curiosity, be compassionate, and ask, like, what is it that you need for me?
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What can I do? What can I say to make you feel better? Because I really, you know, want you to feel better.
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So, trust is built when we build repair, even if there's been a breach of trust and that
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can happen and we also have that template, as I said before. And it's an ongoing process.
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It's a process that we don't always have specific days in our life that are meant for repair.
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We have to create those days. And it requires a great deal of mindfulness, self-awareness,
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awareness of our partners, awareness of ourselves. So, I think I'm going to stop here because
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I would like to be able to take questions if there are any. And I invite you to ask, there's a way
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to do it. And if not, I think that you Sarah have what to say as we close up, but we do have the time.
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Right. So, Tally, there is one question. How do you move forward and forgive when the other
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parties not showing regret for what they did and is more, you know, showing blame rather than regret?
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Right. Well, it's going to be very difficult to move forward.
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And doesn't know how to say sorry. How do you move forward with that?
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Yeah. Well, you know, unfortunately, you don't really move forward. What happens is that when there
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isn't a template for the ability to repair, you know, you may end up harboring, you know, feelings
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of resentment. So, the way to move on, if you really do have that situation, look, what we know
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is that we can't change the other person. We can only change ourselves. And, you know, being able
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to acknowledge that that's the situation, it may require some amount of grieving for what you
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don't have. It may require, you know, some amount of acceptance, radical acceptance, you know,
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there's a lot of other things I love about this partner. There's a lot of other things that
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this partner is really good at. This is just not one of them. So, you know, depending, I guess,
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on all the other variables in the relationship, if that's the one thing and everything else is fine,
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but they just can't be vulnerable. And that's the other thing. Is this lack of taking accountability
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or being able to express regret? Is this about a deep-seated belief that, you know, I didn't do
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anything wrong or I don't really care about you? Or is this more of an individual defense
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that has nothing to do with you? You know, that in the end of the day, they came to the marriage
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with their own injuries from rolling up. And this is definitely not a relational defense.
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Defences are generally not relational, but it is something that has helped him survive. It's very,
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again, like fear-based relationships are not safe. So, if you're a parent and you say that the kid
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did you eat that cookie? And they say, yes, I ate the cookie and you say, well, now you're going to
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get punished, right? They are not going to tell you next time that they ate the cookie. They're not
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going to admit it. So, kids with very punitive experiences will learn to not take responsibility.
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If you grew up in a home where your parents will say, I'm really happy that you told the true.
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And what made you take that cookie? And you know, you're really not supposed to. And
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something that is more educational, something that is more containing, less fear-based,
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creating more of a secure attachment, then that person feels safer to say,
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yeah, I took that cookie and, or yes, I did that to you, you need a lot of self-love and
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self-development that it's okay to not be perfect. If you grew up that it's not okay to be perfect,
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you're going to have a harder time exposing your imperfections. There's a story, this is not my
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story, but Terry Riel, who was a phenomenal couples therapist, likes to tell this story,
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about a couple where he was a real avoidant, attached guy. And just about everything he said
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was lie. I mean, he just flew out of him so easily in order to avoid any kind of conflict.
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So, you know, he would go to the store, he would invariably not bring the right things,
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and then she would say, well, where's the bread? And he'll say they ran out, just like that.
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They did some therapy, and they kind of talked about his wounds, and it turned out that
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his father was really bullied him, and he really had to learn to hide and not tell the truth.
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And it was very vulnerable, that there was a lot of repair, and he tells the story that
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they came in one day, and the woman said the most amazing thing happened. And he said,
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what happened? And he said, well, she said, I sent him to the store, and he came back, and I was
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you know, take them a groceries out of the bags, and I said, honey, where's the eggs?
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And he looked up for a second, and he was about to say, oh, they ran out, but he didn't. He said,
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oh, sorry, honey, I forgot. And she said at that moment, I just wanted a cry. I was so happy
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that he felt safe enough to say to me, I forgot, and he felt vulnerable enough to say, I'm not
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perfect. I hope you're not too upset at me. I'll go back, or whatever it is. So I think that
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person, that guy, that partner, that can't take accountability, you know, that's...
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Ali, can I just ask this, another question, which is similar to this, but we only have another
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about two minutes to answer that, two, three minutes. I'm reading the question, how to forgive
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when there is being betrayal. Sometimes I think I have forgiven, but then I get so activated and
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angry and resentful when something reminds me of the betrayal. So maybe if we can end with that.
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Oh, absolutely. Forgiveness does not mean that you will not get triggered when there is a betrayal,
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and it's important for both partners to know. I had a couple where there wasn't infidelity. I have
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a lot of those, unfortunately. And even though they went through the whole process and she understood
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why he acted out and and and there really was forgiveness, there was one Shabbat where she just
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kind of eyed him, talking to somebody, a kid, it was very innocent, but she got very activated,
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and they came in, they had already stopped therapy, but they had an emergency session. And really
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what happened was that she was triggered. It's kind of like a trauma that stays with you,
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and it doesn't mean that you haven't forgiven your partner. It just means that you are activated
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by a trigger. He was like, I don't understand why you're bringing this up now. Well, you forgive
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me already. And I think that the ability to understand that even if you've cognitively and even
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emotionally forgiven and you've created prepare, that doesn't mean that you're not going to be triggered.
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If God forbid, you were in a accident or if you were in a pigua, and you walk by that same place,
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or you smell the smell of the restaurant that you were in, it's going to activate you,
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it's going to trigger you. We're dealing with different parts of the brain, and this is in your
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limbic brain and your emotional brain. And when you're in your emotional brain, you can't always
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draft your prefrontal cortex. So that's very common. We can hold both. You can hold the kind of,
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you know, I really did forgive, together with, you know, I still can get activated, and it's a lifelong
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process. I hope that answers that question. And thank you again for your attention.
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I can't thank you. And I've been sitting here just mesmerized at the threads that you have
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put together through this presentation. It's not only perfect for elbow, but also we've just
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given a prescription for how couples can really take that their personal awareness and really try
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to bring it together in terms for the benefit of the relationship and the reflection and the
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time-outs. And I'm sitting there because it's just such a part of marriage education and enrichment.
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So as you couldn't have given just the most segue into these themes. And so I really, it's perfect,
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perfect. And I think about launching for the new year, and you just put it all together in such a
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nice package. So I can't think of a better presentation for the kickus off for the new year.
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And on, on that basis, I want to not only thank, I tell you, you heard it Rosenbaum for such an
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incredible, unbelievable presentation, that I also want to make some announcements for the Amwita.
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We've got two exciting events that are coming up. One, I want you to save the date, is another
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webinar for Tuesday, November the 5th, and from the same time, 20 to 21. And we've got an exciting
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presenter that we're really kind of keeping under wraps until the beginning of the high game.
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But it's a segue to actually the marriage education component. We have before Hanukkah are very
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first online, IPrep webinar. And we haven't done it online, but we're doing that because we want to
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encourage as many people as possible, because IPrep stands for Israeli Prep Prep is prevention
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relationship education program. They are allowed to have the exclusive partner to bring the
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curriculum of prep to Israel. And the curriculum is was developed by Dr. Howard Markman and his
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colleagues at the University of Denver. And it's essentially focuses a lot of the concepts that Tali
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mentioned, for example, you mentioned about what we call timeout and taking that time out and
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coming back for the repair. And also for the speaker listener, a type of speaker listener of
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reflection. So that these are the kinds of things that this curriculum focuses on. And so that
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we're only opening it though for couples, Jewish couples married up to two years. And we're only
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keeping it to six day couples, because again, online could be not so intimate. And we want the
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couples to really have a chance to kind of to interact. And so that you can express your interest
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now. If you know of couples that fall into the married up to two years, please let us know.
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Because again, the idea is we want to keep it as intimate, but also into a working workshops.
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And which leads us to the fact that contact us. Now the contact us, we're social media from Facebook
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to LinkedIn to Instagram. We have a very exciting web webpage that I hope you'll take a look at now
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because why? Because it has resources and has blogs. It has the case for marriage education.
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We have a Vince notice. But the main thing is that we want you to reach out to us. Tell us what
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you're interested in. And so that we can plan ahead because we're not going anywhere. And we really
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hope that you'll put a premium on your relationships. And just like Tally mentioned, that because
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it's all about safety, if we all feel secure in our relationships, just think of the reverberation
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to society. And right now, given our climate, it's the most we can do, I think, for the coming
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year, is really make that commitment to really foster our relationships. Let's all, if we take it,
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bring it into our homes, then I think that's about the only area we can control. We certainly don't
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have a lot of control on the outside, but we do on the inside. And I think that's really the message
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that I picked up so much from what Tally said in terms of things that we can, can,
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personalize, but also, concretize. And so that it's on that basis that I want to wish us all a
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little bit, that we should have the peace that we've been yearning for. The most of all, thank you
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for investing in your relationship by joining us tonight. And we hope to see you more in the future.
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And so thank you for enriching all of our lives by participation. And those again, thank you Tally
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for making us zoom in to the next year with a lot of confidence.