Technology
Scott Ritter : NATO Collapsing.
In this episode, Scott Ritter discusses the precarious state of NATO and its implications for global politics, particularly in relation to the ongoing conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza. He analyzes the dy...
Scott Ritter : NATO Collapsing.
Technology •
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Hi everyone, Chad, Chandron Apollo 10 will here for judging freedom.
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Today is Monday, October 6, 2025.
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Scott Ritter, welcome here, my dear friend.
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Before we get into NATO collapsing and its relationship to Ukraine,
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the Gaza, Neocolonial, Steve Whitcoff, Tony Blair, Jared Kushner,
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Development Deal, whatever you want to call it.
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Why would anybody trust the United States and Israel to negotiate with?
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They murder the people that negotiate with Israel.
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Yeah, no, no. You're 100% correct.
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Why would anybody enter a negotiation of this nature?
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One, I think it's imperative that Hamas
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keep Israel and its back foot and Israel is on its back foot.
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Understand this. There would be no Trump deal if Israel thought it was winning this conflict.
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This deal is only possible by the fact that Hamas' resistance is ongoing,
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sustained, and unbeatable at this juncture.
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Israel, again, when they started this ground offensive, this was the final offensive.
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No more deals, no nothing. We're coming in, we're killing everybody.
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Yet now they're stalled. They're losing to a more can't cruise a day.
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Other guys are getting knocked off with snipers.
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Hamas is unconscionable.
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And so Israel has no choice but to go for it.
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But we know that Israel doesn't negotiate in good faith.
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The guys that are negotiating on behalf of Hamas,
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where the ones Israel tried to kill in Qatar the other day.
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So, you know, but it's imperative for Hamas not to allow Israel to paint Hamas into a corner.
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Hamas must be seen as being willing to do that, which is necessary to achieve a peace deal.
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And so they will. I hope and pray that it works.
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I mean, if we can get a ceasefire, if we can have the Gaza and people stay in their homes,
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if we can get the Arab world to rebuild Gaza, if we can get Israel to withdraw,
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if we can move towards a Palestinian state. I mean, these are all the objectives that Hamas set out
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when they began this crisis back on October 7th.
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But history shows that Israel is incapable of living up to any deal.
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Israel doesn't want peace. Israel needs war. Netanyahu needs war. His peace is his enemy.
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If there is peace, Netanyahu will be kicked out of office or rested and put jail for the rest of his life.
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So this is a man who's looking for war. But he also recognizes that Israel is in a very,
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very bad position right now. Not only is its military not succeeding, but its economy is floundering.
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And more importantly for Netanyahu, he's losing the support of the United States. It's slipping away.
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I mean, it's like melting like hot wax. Trump has noted that the iron grip that Israel wants
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to join on the US Congress is there anymore. And we saw with the whole Charlie Kirk thing,
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you know, Christian evangelicals, Christian Zionists are starting to question, you know,
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if you're an American, how can you support Israel? And Netanyahu is in an absolute panic. So
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there's a possibility for peace here. But again, as you said, I don't trust Israel, and I certainly
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don't trust the United States. Why would Hamas give up the hostages and give up their weapons?
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That's the two are their only negotiating points. Well, the hostages, I think at this
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young jury, have served their purpose. I mean, the purpose of taking the hostages to begin with
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was twofold. One, two, lure Israel into Gaza and let Israel be Israel, which Israel has done.
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Committee genocide and alienating the world. If people don't recognize the strategic victory,
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Hamas has achieved here, then they're ignorant of the reality of the Middle East. Israel today is
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a reviled nation around the world. Nations are kicking Israeli diplomats out of their countries.
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Other nations are recognizing Palestine. Everybody except the United States recognizes Israel as a
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practitioner of genocide. And this is a huge victory, a huge victory for Hamas. And that was
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achievable only by the taking of hostages. And then the, you know, the second thing was to use it to
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get Palestinians released. People need to remember that the Israelis are holding thousands of Palestinians
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hostage as we speak. These are people who haven't been charged with anything. These are women,
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these are children. They're being held by the Israelis tortured by the Israelis raped by the
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Israelis. And, you know, Hamas wants them free. And so we're at the juncture now where, you know,
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Israel is done, what Israel is going to do. The world knows what Israel is and Israel's not going to
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be able to shake that off. And you know, right now the release of, I think, 1,200 plus Palestinians
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who are held hostage by the Israelis, held prisoner, are going to be exchanged. I think the utility of
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these hostages has run out at this point to keep them longer. Hamas runs the risk of being, you know,
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painted as the bad guys. And, you know, already around the world, you know, Hamas is tainted by the
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United States and Israel as a terrorist organization. But much of the world recognizes Hamas as a
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legitimate resistance movement, freedom fighters. And Hamas wants to keep it that way. And I think at
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this juncture, from a humanitarian standpoint, there's just nothing further to be gained by holding
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on to these hostages. Why would Donald Trump have said to Benjamin Netanyahu stop the bombing
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in Gaza and Netanyahu having figuratively thumbed his nose at him and accelerated the bombing in Gaza?
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Because Israel operates, according to Israel, again, I just want to reiterate to everybody,
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Israel's not a friend of the United States. You know, Israel does what Israel is going to do. And they
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use America as a tool. But, you know, and we saw this. I mean, look, there might be a military argument
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here. I struggle to make it. But, you know, many of these operations are intelligence-based, planned in
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advance. And they have an execution timetable. And it may have been impossible or very difficult to
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pull the plug on missions that are already underway. We don't know the complexity of the operation on
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the ground, where they're ground controllers, where they're intelligence assets, things of that
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nature. So I don't know. I, you know, I'm just trying to be kind here. But the bottom line is
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I understand that you're trying to be kind. I'm sorry. Go ahead, please Scott. The bottom line is
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Israel is going to do what Israel is going to do. What about the West Bank Trump says that they'll never
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annex it? They already annexed it. I mean, if Trump's going to say you're never going to annex it,
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then Trump needs to pass the law. Get Congress to pass the law. The criminalizes the
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theft of Palestinian land and makes any American who steals Palestinian land subject to criminal
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prostitution when they return to the United States. I would never pass the Congress bought and paid
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for by APEC. Wouldn't pass a Congress-bound paid for by APEC, but as the President has noted,
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that Congress may not exist much longer. And when the reality of what these sellers have done,
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many Americans live in blissful ignorance about the horrific reality of these people. These,
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I don't, you know, this is not an anti-Semitic statement. It's an accusative. These are Brooklyn Jews
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who have become radicalized. And they go to Israel for the sole purpose of stealing Palestinian land,
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murdering Palestinians, kicking them out of their homes. And then they settle there. They don't work.
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These are not gainfully employed people. They sit there and they receive a stipend from the
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Israeli government, courtesy the American taxpayer. Their health care is paid for. Their pensions
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are paid for. Their job is to steal land and declare it as part of greater Israel. And they're doing
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that. If the President is serious about not permitting this, then he needs to hold these people
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criminally liable for what they're doing. Switching over to Ukraine. What is the current state of
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the special military operation? The Russians have made it clear that they're carrying out a war
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of attrition. And their job is to kill Ukrainians and they, business is good. The Ukrainians are
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dying by the bush of wool. Every day and every sector, there's over a battalion worth of Ukrainians
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being killed. The Russians, you know, are not losing anywhere near the casualties that Trump and
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Kellogg and Wittgoth and others are claiming. It is a bloody war, high intensity war. There are
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occasions when the Ukrainians do launch localized counterattacks where they achieved temporary drone
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superiority over a sector of the battlefield. And when you have drone superiority, it's a bad day
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for anybody underneath. The Russians tend to enjoy drone superiority, drone supremacy. But
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every once in a while, the Ukrainians are able to search for it and get it. And you kill some Russians.
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The Russians have never denied that they're not taking casualties. But the Russians say that we can
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handle this. We've got this under control. Our casualties are far less than what the Ukrainians are
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and put made a point of this in his valedine statement. He said, you know, we're focused on one
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thing. The army that doesn't have manpower can't fight. And the Ukrainian army is rapidly reaching
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that point. The Russians are in the business of killing Ukrainians and they are doing it
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by the Bushelfall. And that's where we are. The Russians advance where they can advance every day.
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They're taking, you know, several more towns and villages. But their job right now is basically to
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deplete the Ukrainian military of manpower. And they're doing that in a very efficient, bloody
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horrible way. Is there a disenchantment amongst Russian elites with the pace of the special
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military operation? Is there any pressure on President Putin whether it's some elites or academics
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or politicians or military personnel or intelligence personnel to bring about an end to this?
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Sure, the answer is no. The long answer is, look, there are some residual elites.
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You know, before the special military operation, you know, kicked in, there were political and
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economic elites who had ties back to the golden age of Western economic and political intervention,
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the 1990s. And they maintained a certain level of influence throughout Putin's, you know,
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formative years as presidents. And they've been a problem for Putin because, you know, they represent
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a linkage to the West. It isn't necessarily to the benefit of Russia, but politically Putin,
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you couldn't delink them because there are consequences at the polls. Yes, Vladimir Putin is not
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a dictator. He is a democratically elected president. And if you piss off enough Russians,
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you don't win the vote. But because of the special military operation, the West divorced Russia.
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And these political elites became disenfranchised. Many of them fled, but many of them stayed.
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So I would say that there might be residual resentment amongst some of these elites, but they are so
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far removed from the center of power. It's not even funny. I know what you're talking about. I'm not
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going to denigrate the person. I'll put forward this theory so far off base. That person needs to go
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to Russia. That person needs to meet with the elites he's talking about. Not look at Russia long
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distance through Russian television programs. Sit down with Russians. Meet with the Russians. See
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the reality of Russia and see the reality of the broad spectrum of support that President
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Putin enjoys amongst the Russian people. Elites and non-elites alike. The President Putin's under no
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pressure from anybody. This man is as pressure free as he could be.
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Well, I agree with you. You and I have been there. We will both be there very soon. But the person
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we're talking about actually used the unthinkable word. Who? Because the OUP. I mean, without naming
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names, that person, was a respected individual, used that word. I mean, I got a lot of pushback
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from our friends in Russia over that. I don't subscribe to it. You don't subscribe to it.
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But he does. Well, I mean, everybody's the beauty of living in a free world is that you have
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freedom of speech and you get to say what you want to say, but you need to be held accountable for it
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as well. There is no evidence whatsoever that there's anything remotely resembling the C-word
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taking place in Russia today. Just the opposite. The big C-word that exists in Russia is corruption.
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And there is residual corruption from the time when Putin became President back in 2000,
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when he was first elected, up through the mobilization in 2022. When troops were sent to the
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mobilization centers, only to find that the people managed it. In the money that was supposed to be
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used to buy uniforms and maintain weapons and everything and put it in their pockets, bought new cars
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and new houses. And that was a big wake-up call. And to this day, you see generals, senior generals,
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senior bureaucrats being arrested for corruption. This is a problem. But Putin is cleaning it up.
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The Russians are cleaning it up. Sometimes there's overreach. And I think my friend Alexander Zirionov
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was caught up in overreach. But by and large, the big boogie man hanging around Vladimir Putin's
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presidency was corruption. And that's being cleaned up. And the more he cleans up corruption,
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the stronger his hold on power is. Remember, this is not a dictator. This is a man who rules because
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the Russian people love him. And the last time I saw a coup take place in the nation where the people
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supported their president democratically by over 80 percent, you've never seen a coup take place.
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It doesn't happen. I like and I respect the person who made these allegations. He just looks
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at things differently than the rest of us do. And I mean, from talking to you and other people
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in Russia, in Moscow, people you and I will be with shortly. Not a centella of evidence for this.
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Is NATO collapsing? Well, NATO has been collapsing for a while. I mean, the collapse of NATO,
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one could say, began at its birth when it was created for no reason.
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You know, two artificially, you know, sustain a crisis environment that could keep the United States
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and keep the Russians out, keep the Germans down. That was what Lord, Lord Ismay said one of the first
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Secretary General of NATO. But you know, NATO's heyday was during the Cold War during the 1970s and
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80s when, you know, it became sort of the premier defensive alliance in the military alliance the
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world has ever seen. But with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the justification for this alliance
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went away. NATO has been struggling ever since. And through that struggle, it's primarily a political
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struggle, economic struggle. It's not a military struggle because NATO didn't have any real enemies.
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And so the NATO military atrophyed over that time and they became addicted to American weapons.
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And American weapons just aren't as good as everybody thinks they are.
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And so now we have NATO, you know, with military's, it can't fight, can't get out of the barracks,
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addicted to an American weapons, you know, supply chain, which has now been proven to be unreliable.
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Because what happens when America's ally is, will start banging off weapons and needs it.
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The weapons get taken from other allies, the ones in the Pacific and the ones in Europe.
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It's done. And then NATO itself, you know, has just is part of a European elite that
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has committed economic suicide by delinking Europe from, you know, Russian energy. And the
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economic consequences are horrific. So as Europe collapses, NATO collapses, and they're both
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collapsing right now. Does NATO have weapons funded or produced by the United States? Or does the
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US military in Europe have these weapons? I mean, there is no NATO, there's a commanding
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general of NATO, but there's no NATO army, is there? Well, actually, I mean, there is NATO forces,
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there's forces. Every NATO member has a military structure. And some of these units are earmarked
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for NATO. So they're, you know, they have NATO missions, NATO assignments. Are there US army and
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Marines in Europe not subject to American generals, but subject to NATO generals?
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NATO generals are American generals. The United States isn't subjected anybody, but the
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President of the United States. That's the way it works. There's not going to be a foreign
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general that orders American troops to do jack. That's just the reality. The commander of ground
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forces in Europe today is an American forced our general Christopher Donahue, and it will always be
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in American because we're just not going to allow foreigners to order American troops in the combat.
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It doesn't work that way. If there's going to be a war in Europe that involves American troops,
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the President of the United States is going to make the decision to make that happen. Not the
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Secretary General, not the military committee of NATO, nobody. That's just a reality. They're,
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Airpower has been where NATO has been investing a lot of money. You see the F-35s.
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I mean, again, it's done, you know, for financial reasons. It's done to help Lockheed Markner,
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whoever that makes that aircraft make him a lot of money. You know, we sell the F-35s. We sold
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the F-16s and such. But, you know, we also sold Patriot missiles. We sold artillery systems,
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but what they're finding is that the United States has strings attached to everything. And sometimes
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those strings are attached to, you know, walls to get fooled in place to shut down the supply of
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weapons, Patriots. Europe is going to see more Patriots. Those Patriots are going to go to Israel.
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They're going to go to the United States, both in terms of replenishing what we need in Europe,
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because now we're waking up the fact that if there is or is a shooting war with Russia,
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we need to heck a lot more missiles than we have. And also, if there's going to be a shooting
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war with China, we need missiles and we're, we just don't have them. And so the United States is
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basically saying, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're shutting down that pipeline for you.
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Is Ukraine going to get Tomahawks from the United States?
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No, they were, first of all, they've never given them directly from the United States. The,
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the discussion that appears to be taking place is that the Netherlands, and if you saw the,
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the Netherlands Prime Minister was just in, in Ukraine today doing a solemn march with Zolinsky,
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you know, celebrate or, you know, being sartful about the losses and all this. And the Dutch have
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been big talkers about how they're going to support. And the Dutch in 2023 said they wanted to buy
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the Tomahawk. The Tomahawk sales were approved in 2025. Money has been allocated. It's been tested on
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Dutch ships. And in 2028, the, the Tomahawk will begin to be delivered to the Dutch. As the
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president has said, we will sell weapons to NATO. And the NATO can decide to do what they want. So
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the route for the Tomahawk to come to Ukraine, if it does, will be through the Netherlands. But
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that decision has been made yet. Because, you know, the Dutch would have to commit military resources
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to assist the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians aren't trained up on this. They, they don't know how to use
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them. And then the Dutch would also have to make an argument for accelerated delivery of the Tomahawk.
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Because, wait until 2028, for the Tomahawk to come to the Dutch and then for the Dutch to deliver
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to the Ukraine, there won't be a Ukraine back then. Ukraine is desperate now, right now. If they
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were going to ever have the need for a long range strike to, you know, and hope in a prayer of,
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you know, getting the Russians to come to the negotiating table, it's now. Now it's a
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nuclear war and we'd all be dead. But the, the, the vector wouldn't be from the United States. And
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Ukraine, the vector would be through a NATO country. Right now, the only NATO country that is
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in the procurement process is the Netherlands. Here's the hot head to whom you referred earlier.
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We've seen this clip, but we'll play it again. General Donahue was saying how easy it would be
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for his troops to take over. Colin and Gregg. If you look at Clinton Gregg at its,
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dip, you know, you can argue back and forth, but it's about 47 miles wide,
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surrounded by NATO on all sides. There's absolutely no reason why that A280 bubble to deter Russia,
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we cannot take that down from the ground in a time frame that is unheard of and faster than we've
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ever been able to do. We've already planned that. We've already developed it.
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We'll apologize, never withdrawing. Why the hell would he have said something like that? That's
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this past summer. That's just three months ago. I think he said it because he came into office
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realizing that NATO was very weak, very weak. And his job is to project an aura of strength.
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And so I think he was ordered to say this, you know, Cristani, you're smart enough to know
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that he just can't get ahead of NATO planning and what America is willing to support.
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And so he was ordered to, you know, we seek peace through strength. And the idea is to appear
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strong and make Russia feel vulnerable. By projecting a potential threat to Clinton Gregg,
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the hope would be that Russia would divert resources to Clinton Gregg that otherwise might go
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to Ukraine or go up to St. Petersburg where Russia is putting in a new, you know, military district
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opposite of Finland. And I think that's the purpose. But the bottom line is he just doesn't,
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I can't say he doesn't know what he's talking about, but the words he say is reflective of
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a surrounded by NATO. He realized that the NATO that surrounds Clinton Gregg is the Baltics
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in Poland. And that neither one of them possess the kind of offensive strike capacity that
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that Donohue is speaking of. If any of these nations tried to crack the Clinton Gregg nut,
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they'd be slaughtered in a heartbeat. But moreover, Donohue needs to understand that
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Clinton Gregg's not some sort of throwaway territory. It is the Russian federation. It is
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Mother Russia. And if you go after Clinton Gregg, it's like going after Moscow and you're going
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to die. And that's what I said to Chris Donohue when he made that statement as you just committed suicide
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because there is an esconder S. That's a new missile or there's an arrest. And if there has your
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name on it, you won't live. You're the command and control of this operation of this insanity.
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And if you gave the orders to execute operation, reduce Clinton Gregg, you know, bubble,
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you die almost immediately because Russia will take you out with weapons. You can't defend yourself
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against. This is this stupidity of statements like that. I know why he made it and I have enough
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respect for Chris Donohue to recognize that he was putting a very difficult situation and he
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doesn't believe a word of what he said. Here is President Putin last week. Very articulate,
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very knowledgeable. Talking about Tomahawks at Chris number six. It's dangerous as for the Tomahawks,
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it's a powerful arm. Perhaps not the most modernized, but it's powerful.
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It poses serious threat. This will not change in any way the balance of powers on the battlefield,
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the fundamental issues of the armed forces of Ukraine, no matter how many UAVs they get.
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And no matter how many lines they create with those UAVs, without the personnel, there will be
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no one to lead those battles. They have to change the tactics. Will this
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pose damage to our relations where we see light at the end of the tunnel? Of course,
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of course using Tomahawks without direct involvement of the U.S. officer, this is impossible,
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which means a brand new stage of escalation even between Russia and the U.S.
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We even have them to give. We have Tomahawks, we could give them, but we're not going to.
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The lawyer said, we're not going to give anything to Ukraine. That's not how this works.
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NATO has to buy the Tomahawks and then a political decision has to be made by both NATO
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and NATO. By the NATO country involved. Again, I mentioned Netherlands being the only candidate for this
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and the United States. We have to give the Netherlands re-export authority.
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But we also have to be in Congress. When he says they can't be operated without the personnel,
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he must mean without American personnel because of the top secret information needed to operate them.
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If there's certain Tomahawks, yes. I mean, the ones that we use, the ones we gave to the Brits,
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they have all this. We're selling Tomahawks to Japan and we're going to sell Tomahawks to the Dutch.
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And the question is, do these variants have the same linkage? Do they require an American footprint
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on both? And I think the answer is no. And so this export version of the Tomahawk
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could in theory be made available to Ukraine without American hands. It wouldn't be as effective.
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The target it would have to be derived from NATO sources and things of that. You wouldn't have
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you could come up with an export version that doesn't require American troops. But if anything
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happened today, if they suddenly, yeah, it could only be with America. And this is the danger
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that people need to understand. Go open the door to a one-year moratorium on New Start, which is
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going to expire tragically on February 5th of next year. The treaty's gone. And unless we keep that
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cap in place of 1550 warheads, we're going to go into a nuclear strategic nuclear arms race. It's
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going to see the number of warheads quadruple almost overnight. And ultimately, we'll have this
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arms race where new weapons are being deployed. Very dangerous situation. Putin has said he'd
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like a one-year moratorium so the United States and Russia could talk about what's next, how to
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keep this under control. But as he pointed out, that will not happen if the United States facilitates
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the transfer of Tomahawk missiles. And again, the Russians have been very good about acting on
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reality, not on intent. They're very calm. They don't go off on rumors. No one's been successful
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in provoking them into any major escalation. But when we're talking about a nuclear capable
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missile being provided to Ukraine, that violates every, you know, facet of Russia's nuclear doctrine,
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which says, by the way, just so people understand, if a nuclear power provides a non-nuclear power
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with the means to attack Russia, Russia will treat the attack as if coming from the nuclear power.
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And it will prompt a nuclear response. So no matter how you spend this thing, providing
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Ukraine with Tomahawk missiles makes the United States the enemy. And it clears Russia to use nuclear
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weapons, which is the last thing we want. So we need to stop this talk. This needs to be nipped in the
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bud. You know, last December, President Trump gave an interview to Time Magazine about Biden
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signing off on the attack comes missile and providing the intelligence for that. It's the exact
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peril of what they're talking about here, given the Tomahawk's to Ukraine, given the intelligence to
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deep strike. And at that time, Trump said, this is insanity. This could lead to a war and it could
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have. He said, I will never support this. And at that time, Congress, the members of Congress
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Republicans, put forward a House resolution designed to prohibit President Biden from going forward
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with the attack comes and providing the intelligence. Congress needs to do the same thing. Now they need
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to be consistent because what the President's administration is talking about today is the exact
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peril of what Biden was talking about back in December, but worse, it's an, you know, an escalation.
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And Congress needs to step in right now and say, not just no, but hell no. You're not allowed to
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sell the, the Tomahawk to anybody and you're not allowed to provide intelligence information that
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would facilitate the targeting of the use of weapons into Russia because that is literally an
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act of war. If some Russian intel officials or military lieutenants are looking at a radar
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screen and they see Tomahawk's in the sky coming to Moscow, can they tell if they're nuclear armed?
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No, I mean, there might be some other intelligence indicators if they know exactly where it was
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launched from. And I think bottom line is if Tomahawk's around the way to Moscow, you have to
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assume they're nuclear and that's going to trigger something. I mean, I can't speak for the Russians.
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They've shown historically to be very responsible and very mature. We've avoided global annihilation
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on several occasions because of the reticence of Russian officers to, you know, pull the nuclear
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trigger. And so, you know, I'd like to believe that the Russians will continue to be mature, but
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Tomahawk's to Moscow. Come on, judge. What if I said that, uh, uh, uh,
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a Russian Nick to Washington DC? How would you expect Congress to respond? How would you expect
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the president to respond? How are the American people supposed to respond? Oh, it's okay. It's just
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an a Russian Nick. It only took out the Capitol. It only took out the Pentagon. Don't worry about it.
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The Lincoln Memorial. God, don't worry about it. It's just an a Russian. You send a Tomahawk to
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Moscow. You're hitting one of the most historic cities in the world. You're hitting the Capitol of
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Russia. I mean, what are the Russians supposed to be willing to give up the Kremlin?
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St. Basil? The Bolshevik? You hit anything in Moscow with a weapon of that nature and all
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hell is going to be broken loose just as it would if somebody hit Washington DC with a missile
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the same low. People need to put on their thinking caps real quick because this thing's getting
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general. A general locale log should stop talking about, uh, president Trump authorizing Tomahawk's.
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He should be fired on the spot. You know, he had to, um, Kellogg actually had to walk that
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statement back the next day. He was in a, you know, meeting a security meeting in Warsaw. And he
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had to say, oh, no, no, it's a speculation. No, I can't speak for any deliberations taking
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place in Washington DC. Then why did you? He's grossly irresponsible. I mean, this is a man who
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was literally decorated by Zelenski as a hero of Ukraine. Um, for the work he does for Ukraine.
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And, you know, and we're supposed to, we need to recognize who he works for. He doesn't work for
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the United States. He works for Ukraine and Ukrainian interests. And the proof is in the fact that
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he ran his mouth in such a grossly irresponsible, he should have been fired on the spot. People
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have been fired for far less. You know, back in the, in the lead up to the Gulf War, the secretary
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of the Air Force made a statement about, you know, the upcoming air campaign, speaking about
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what we were planning on doing to the Iraqis, uh, in desert storm. And, uh, he was fired on the spot.
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He doesn't get to talk like that. A Keith Kellogg is speaking literally on behalf of the president.
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Should be fired on the spot. He is grossly irresponsible. Scotty, thank you very much, my dear friend.
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Uh, great conversation all across the board. Much appreciated. I will see you soon, but we'll
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look forward to seeing you next week. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Coming up, uh, one more today at four
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o'clock on all of this, but mainly on Israel and Gaza, Professor Jeffrey Sachs,
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with Dr. information for future Mommy fe Owens.