True Crime
The Endless Estate: Exploring the Winchester Mystery House
In this episode of Fringe Beyond, we delve into the eerie and enigmatic Winchester Mystery House, a sprawling Victorian mansion built by Sarah Winchester, who believed she was haunted by the spirits o...
The Endless Estate: Exploring the Winchester Mystery House
True Crime •
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Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
Sa.
Speaker B
Welcome to another episode of Fringe Beyond.
Speaker C
You guys were so in sync.
Speaker A
Oh, that felt good.
Speaker B
Yeah. See? See? Come to the dark side.
Speaker A
Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, bye.
Speaker B
Bye. So, ladies. Long time.
Speaker A
Gentlemen.
Speaker B
See.
Speaker C
Boy.
Speaker A
Oh, seller.
Speaker B
My. My wee. Wee just got smaller.
Speaker A
Oh, that's.
Speaker C
Can it get any smaller?
Speaker B
It could be inverted. So. Yes.
Speaker A
You haven't.
Speaker C
Sucks for you, doesn't it?
Speaker B
Yeah, I'd be. I mean, I'd be okay. It's really Missy that would be missing out, you know?
Speaker A
See what you did there?
Speaker B
You see what I did there?
Speaker A
Missy be missing.
Speaker B
I am a wordsmith sometimes.
Speaker A
Well, you're just sometimes.
Speaker B
John Smith.
Speaker A
How's it going? How's. How's. How's your day? How's your week?
Speaker B
Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna leave it at that.
Speaker A
Just. Yeah, just.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's. There it is there. It was there. And another one will be here soon.
Speaker A
Another one bites dust Another one gun.
Speaker B
Another one gun. Another one bites the dust.
Speaker C
Next year. I did not do it this time.
Speaker B
I know, but I didn't do it. You didn't do it. But it also sounded like 1940s big band.
Speaker A
What? This? I quit.
Speaker B
Sorry that we don't appreciate your musical talent.
Speaker A
Oh, I appreciate it.
Speaker B
I mean, in a different way. Somebody does in a different way.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah. I mean, we. We appreciate it because it makes us feel better because we actually have a better talent than you, so.
Speaker A
Oh, Frankfurter, be nice.
Speaker B
I know. I'm sorry. You haven't called me that in a long time, Frankfurter. Yeah, it's been a long time since I heard that.
Speaker A
Well, it's up getting in. You haven't gotten in trouble in a long time.
Speaker B
This is true. This is true. Well, ladies, what about you guys? What's. What's shelapping over there?
Speaker A
I don't have any more wildlife stories.
Speaker B
Yeah. All right, that's fine. That's fine. Do you have any.
Speaker A
It is like rutting season here soon.
Speaker B
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
To figure out what happens to deer and. Well, I mean, I know what happens, but I need to know what happens to my property dogs. Are they safe? Are they in trouble?
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
All right. Well, yeah. So no wildlife stories. Do you have any human interaction stories? Because I think that's what's really lacking in your life.
Speaker A
Oh, my gosh. It's funny you say that. Like, I. Now I understand where, like, the nosy neighbor comes from. Like, you know, people always say, oh, like, my. I have this old neighbor. They're retired, and they always know what's going on. And, you Know whatever. Now I know because like, you don't have them a monitor to look at. You just look out your windows.
Speaker B
Right? Right.
Speaker A
So Snapchats, like, oh, I think we're getting neighbor. We'll be sitting here. Oh, go ahead.
Speaker C
The thing is, we'll be sitting here and all of a sudden I hear like a lawnmower. And he goes, who's cutting the grass?
Speaker A
I'm just like, I don't know, I don't care.
Speaker C
And he goes, go, look, I want to see. I want to know who's cutting for ass.
Speaker A
I'm like, why? Because you gotta know. You gotta know.
Speaker B
I swear to God, Brian acts like a 75 year old woman.
Speaker A
Why does he have to be a woman? So when he dies, he's going to be the woman in the window.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
I plan on being like the haunting woman in the window when I die.
Speaker B
Yeah, as soon as I die, I'm. I'm coming for everyone. So beware.
Speaker A
Great. Now I have to shower fully dressed.
Speaker B
Yep, yep.
Speaker A
Pretty much never gonna go potty ever again in my life.
Speaker B
Well, I mean, no, you can't. I'm not gonna be around for that, Trust me.
Speaker A
No, you'd be the farting ghost. You just walk around and. But if I. If I was the woman in the window ghost, I wouldn't just like, stand there. I would, like, be like moaning myrtle and I would be upside down in the window and like popping sideways, you know, just to keep the people on the outside who are taking photos.
Speaker B
I just. This is par for my. The way my brain works.
Speaker A
Oh, gosh.
Speaker B
So like, like everything you were saying is like, you know, something weird a ghost would do that you would never expect them to do. My brain goes, what if you walked into a ghost masturbating? Like, how weird would that be?
Speaker A
I wonder if anyone has, right?
Speaker B
I mean, you know, you never know. Yeah, like, it'd be amazing.
Speaker C
It reminds me of like those scary movie movies.
Speaker B
Mm, yes, exactly.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
All right, so I have a question. Okay, this just sparked another question.
Speaker A
Uh, oh.
Speaker B
Have you guys ever walked in on someone masturbating?
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
No. Really?
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
I mean, all right.
Speaker B
I've never been caught.
Speaker C
Well, have you walked in on somebody, though?
Speaker B
I have not. I have not.
Speaker A
Look at that.
Speaker B
Yeah, but usually, like, like, usually it's.
Speaker A
It's like movies depicted, like, people getting walked in on all the time.
Speaker B
Yeah, well, that and it's always like a woman walking in on, you know, a boyfriend or a guy or a husband or whatever.
Speaker C
You know, the mom walking in on the sun.
Speaker B
Right, right. You know, so that's why I was asking you guys if you guys ever have. That's interesting.
Speaker A
Nope.
Speaker B
Okay. What would you do if you walked in on, say, your significant other? Would you just be like, I would.
Speaker A
Homer Simpson and close the door and just back away slowly?
Speaker C
Pretty much the same thing.
Speaker B
I would look at Missy, be like, listen, you're either in or out. Make a choice. All right.
Speaker A
I mean, I might double take the eye contact part. Like, look down, look up, look down, look up. And then I would back away.
Speaker B
Oh, that's fantastic.
Speaker A
Just to confirm I am observing what I thought I was a thought.
Speaker B
Okay. Yeah. All right. At one of my jobs. God, when was this? Fuck. I was in my late 20s. No, even earlier than that. I was in my early 20s or mid-20s. I was working at a online university, and one of our employees got caught doing that in the bathroom.
Speaker C
Ew.
Speaker B
And from time to time, I think about this. I go, what kind of urge do you have that you're at work and you're like, I just need. I need to. I need a release, you know? Like, I don't get that. You know, like, having sex at work is way different, I think, different mindset than masturbating at work, don't you?
Speaker A
Excuse me. And, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
You know, like, you know, if you're having sex, that means there's, you know, flirting. There's, you know. Right.
Speaker A
You're just flirting with yourself.
Speaker B
Yeah, yeah. You're pretty much just teasing yourself at that point. You know.
Speaker A
Meet me in the bathroom. Oh. Me, myself, and I. Okay.
Speaker B
Yeah. You're looking into a mirror.
Speaker A
Like, hey, you're like, oh, nice pants.
Speaker B
Could you bend over a little bit? I like the way I look in those pants.
Speaker A
I like the way I look. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man.
Speaker B
Yeah. All right, all right, all right. So, ladies, what's happening tonight? What are we. What's our topic for this evening?
Speaker A
A woman in a window.
Speaker C
No, no.
Speaker B
Is she masturbating?
Speaker C
Maybe.
Speaker B
Fantastic.
Speaker A
Oh, man.
Speaker C
The famous Winchester mystery house.
Speaker B
The Winchester.
Speaker A
I don't want to go there.
Speaker C
Not the Winchesters from Supernatural.
Speaker B
Okay. But Winchester, like the gun.
Speaker A
Like the pew pew gun.
Speaker B
Yeah. Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew.
Speaker A
Lasers. Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah. So I. I do want to go here as well. I think it would be.
Speaker C
Yeah, I would love to go here.
Speaker A
Like, it. It scratches that childhood fantasy of, like, just a house with doors that go nowhere and, you know, like, hidden cubbies and. I don't know.
Speaker C
Just. How far is this from Queen Mary?
Speaker B
I have no idea. You're asking someone who's never been to either Or.
Speaker C
I know, but I think they're both in California, right?
Speaker B
Yes, they're both in California.
Speaker A
It's a very big state.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's very long.
Speaker C
It's a very big state. So it's kind of curious on how far they were because if they weren't that far, we can make that a trip. Two places.
Speaker B
Yeah. So even if it was far, it would just be like probably a 30 minute flight from point A to point B.
Speaker A
True. Where is the Winchester house again?
Speaker B
It's in San Jose. San Jose.
Speaker C
Okay.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker C
That's like half a state away.
Speaker A
That's up by San Francisco.
Speaker B
Right, but what I'm saying is.
Speaker A
And no, I would say the Queen Mary's like down San Diego.
Speaker B
Is it by San.
Speaker A
It's in Long Beach.
Speaker C
I just looked it up.
Speaker B
Okay. Yes.
Speaker A
I mean, that's five, six hour drive.
Speaker B
Yeah, but that's like in an hour flight.
Speaker A
True.
Speaker B
You know, so I mean. Yeah, let's be honest.
Speaker A
It's not impossible.
Speaker B
No, I mean, but if we're going that far out of state, we're definitely not driving.
Speaker A
Well, durr, I can't sit in the car with you that long.
Speaker B
Oh, Jesus.
Speaker A
Lose my marbles.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
No more Disney songs. For the last time, I'm not Disney singing along.
Speaker B
Come on, do it. But yeah, no, that would be a fantastic trip to go through that. So, the Winchester Mystery House. Imagine a house, not just any house, but one that breathes, shifts, and seems to possess a mind of its. Or, yeah, possess a mind of its own. A sprawling Victorian mansion where staircases climb to solid ceilings, where doors open into brick walls. And where a wrong turn could lead you into a pitch black abyss. Or a room you swear wasn't there a moment ago. This isn't a nightmare. This. This is real. And it stands in the heart of San Jose, California for nearly four decades. It was built by one woman driven by an unimaginable fortune and an even more unimaginable fear. She poured millions into its construction, day and night without end. Why? Because a terrifying prophecy dictated that if the hammers ever fell silent, she would join the restless, vengeful spirit she believed haunted her every step. Today we will step through the threshold of the most bizarre and bewildering architectural marvel in America. The Winchester Mystery House. Prepare yourselves, because once you enter this house, you might find that some secrets refuse to stay buried. And some spirits never truly leave. Our story begins not with bricks and mortar, but with a name that echoes through American history. Winchester. When we hear that name, most of us immediately think of an iconic Winchester repeating rifle, the gun that won the West. It's a symbol of American expansion, but for one woman, it became a source of profound dread and a catalyst for a lifelong obsession. That woman was Sarah Pardee Winchester. Born in 1839 in New Haven, Connecticut, Sarah was a refined woman of her era. She was highly educated, fluent in several languages, a gifted musician, and by all accounts, quite beautiful. In 1862, she married William Wirt Winchester, the beloved son of Oliver Winchester, who founded the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. Their life seemed idyllic, a picture of wealth, privilege, and happiness. However, this idyllic existence was shattered by unspeakable tragedy. In 1866, just four years after their marriage, Sarah and William's only child, a daughter named Annie Purdy Winchester, died in infancy, just weeks after her birth from a mysterious childhood illness. The grief was immense, a wound that never truly healed for Sarah. Then, just 15 years later, in 1881, tragedy struck again when William Wirt Winchester himself succumbed to tuberculosis. Sarah was utterly devastated. Alone and adrift, at the age of 42, Sarah Winchester inherited an unimaginable fortune. We're talking about approximately $20 million in 1881, which today would be several hundred million, potentially even over a billion dollars, adjusted for inflation. She also received an enormous income from the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, roughly $1,000 a day, a truly staggering sum for the late 19th century. She was, without question, one of the wealthiest women in the world. But this immense fortune, rather than bringing solace, seemed to bring a crushing weight of guilt and fear. And this is where the legend truly begins. It's said that Sarah, overwhelmed by grief and feeling a profound sense of foreboding, consulted a medium in Boston, a common practice during the spiritualism movement of that era. The medium allegedly delivered a chilling message. She told Sarah that her family was being haunted by the spirits of all those who had been killed by Winchester rifles. The countless lives taken by the gun that won the west were now seeking retribution. To appease these tormented souls and, crucially, to save herself from their wrath, the medium advised Sarah to move west and build a house. But there was a catch. The construction must never stop. If she ever ceased building, the spirits would claim her life, too. Now, whether Sarah truly believed this prophecy, or if it was a coping mechanism for her immense grief, and perhaps, perhaps a burgeoning mental fragility is a matter of debate. But what is undeniable is what happened next. So I have a question. What do you think would Happen if she just said, I don't want to move with West, I'm just going to stay here in Boston, like, would she then be okay? Because from the sounds of it, like, this curse starts with the building of the house. So if the house was never started building, would they be okay?
Speaker A
I mean, maybe you would think if.
Speaker C
That'S how the curse starts, if you don't start it, you should be fine.
Speaker B
Right?
Speaker A
I'm just. My head kind of went in another direction, though.
Speaker B
Okay. Yeah. What's that?
Speaker A
What if that medium was just, like. That was their side hustle, and really they were just a teamster.
Speaker B
Okay. Okay.
Speaker A
It's a union rep, and you got to keep building the house. Never stop building.
Speaker B
Yep, I'm listening. Keep going.
Speaker A
Siphon. You know, they might be part of the mob.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Siphon all this bajillions of dollars into the mob.
Speaker B
Yeah. I wish they had the name of the psychic, because if it ended in a vowel, then definitely part of the mob.
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean, Jimmy Hoffa might be freaking buried in. In the walls of this house.
Speaker B
You know what? You're on to something. Maybe we should go consult a medium and see what. Where he's buried.
Speaker A
Yeah. Medium looking for Jimmy Hoffa at large.
Speaker B
How famous would you become if you found and discovered Jimmy Hoffa's body?
Speaker A
There'd be no. No words, I. I don't think. Yeah, I mean, I've often said, like, I have a pretty high pain tolerance, but it fu. Do you ever get those toe cramps where, like, your one toe, like, goes and it, like, bends in weird ways, like. Yeah, I. If that was some sort of. If I was tortured with that. That torture to make my toe cramp, I. I would tell you where. Jimmy Hoffa.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker C
Okay, so it doesn't really take much.
Speaker A
Just to make it stop. Yeah.
Speaker B
All right, so I'm going to withhold bananas and water so you don't get potassium and you dehydrate so that cramping happens?
Speaker A
Well, why do you want to torture me? Because you want to know where Hoffa is.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
Oh, well, saying. All right, I'm not going to tell you. You won't pay me.
Speaker B
Wow. That's. That's rude.
Speaker A
But you're just going to walk through the Winchester house and tap on the wall? I'm looking for studs. No, I'm just really looking for the density. A body in the wall, like.
Speaker B
No, you just knock. Hoffa.
Speaker C
Keep going.
Speaker B
Jimmy, you there?
Speaker A
Jimmy? Yeah, James. Jimmy.
Speaker B
What do you go by now is James. Are you sophisticated no. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker A
Mistah.
Speaker B
Nobody here. All right, so the beginning of the house. Cyril Winchester, a grieving widow, inherited an immense fortune and allegedly a terrifying spiritual directive. So in 1886, she packed her bags, left her home in the east, and traveled west to the Santa Clara Valley in California. There she purchased an unfinished two story, eight room farmhouse on 162 acres of land in what is now San Jose. And then it began. For the next 38 years, until her death in 1922, construction of the Winchester Mystery House was relentless. Carpenters, plumbers, masons, and other laborers worked around the clock seven days a week, 24 hours a day. The sound of hammers, saws, and shovels were a constant presence on the estate. It was a perpetual building site. At its peak before the 1906 earthquake, the house reportedly stood seven stories tall in some sections. While parts were damaged and later removed. The sheer scale of the remaining structure is mind boggling. It's believed to have once contained 160 rooms, 40 bedrooms, two ballrooms, 47 fireplaces, 10,000 panes of glass, six kitchens, and even three elevators. Yep.
Speaker A
Did she furnish all of these rooms?
Speaker B
I mean, she was rich.
Speaker A
Did she just build the space? I don't know. Did she just build the space or does, like all of the bedrooms have beds and all of the kitchens had pots and.
Speaker C
Yeah, I think she just kept building and building and I don't know, I pretty sure not all of them had furnishing.
Speaker B
Who knows? I mean, if she could afford to pay round the clock workers, I'm pretty.
Speaker A
Sure she could for 20. Would you say 20, 38.
Speaker B
38 years. I'm pretty sure she could afford to furnish the, the rooms as well. You know, I can't see them just being empty rooms. And here's my question. The elevators, do you think there were floors that the elevators would just open to, like a brick wall?
Speaker A
Probably. Why not?
Speaker B
Yeah. Wouldn't that be fun if that happened? That would freak me the fuck out, but that would be fun.
Speaker A
So did she, did she does like. Did she just tell the builders, go nuts, just keep building, or did she like have floor plans?
Speaker C
She architect all this herself?
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Oh, boy.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker C
Yeah, she was like. She was the architect for her own house.
Speaker B
Yeah. So the. I'm sure we'll get into this, but the, the reason why there's like staircases that go to the ceiling and doors that open to nothing is because she was trying to trick and confuse the spirits that were allegedly haunting her.
Speaker C
Or at least that's the story.
Speaker B
Yeah. So, yeah, the cost of this endless construction is estimated to be around $5.5 million in early 20th century dollars, which, considering Sarah's daily income, she could more than afford. But it's not just the scale that makes the house mysterious. It's the utterly illogical and bizarre design. This wasn't a master plan. It was a constantly evolving, chaotic work in progress, driven by Sarah's whims and perhaps her spiritual consultations. Let's talk about some of these famous architectural oddities. Sarah Winchester acted as her own architect, which led to the house's famously haphazard and maze like design. You have the staircases that led to ceilings. One prominent example is the staircase to nowhere, which ascends directly into a solid wall. Was this to confuse spirits? Or simply a temporary measure that was never completed before new instructions arrived? Then there are the doors that open onto brick walls. Or even more infamously, the door into Nowhere on the second floor, which literally opens directly to a 15 foot drop to the ground outside. Imagine stepping through the door in the dark. These weren't mistakes, they were intentional. Some theories suggest they were designed to trap or mislead malevolent spirits. You also have windows that look into other rooms, creating odd visual illusions. There are cupboards that are only an inch deep and seemingly pointless addition. There are secret passages and trapdoors hidden throughout the house, Some leading to other parts of the house, others to dead ends. Sarah herself is said to have used these passages to move around the house undetected, perhaps further evading unwelcome spectral visitors. The number 13 appears everywhere. There are 13 bathrooms. Many windows have 13 panes of glass. Many walls have 13 panels. And the famous 13 candles room where Sarah would reportedly hold her sances, featured 13 hooks for coats. This wasn't just a quirky design choice. For many, it points to Sarah's deep belief in numerology, possibly as a way to control or influence the spirits. Sarah Winchester herself was a figure shrouded in mystery. She was reclusive, often wearing a veil and sleeping in a different bedroom each night to further evade spirits she believed were pursuing her every morning. She would.
Speaker A
That's a lot of sheets to change.
Speaker B
Agreed. Well, if she's the only one sleeping in them, I mean, do you really need to change them if she's just using them for one night? I don't know. I'm. I'm asking.
Speaker A
Guess she pay someone to do that too?
Speaker B
Probably. She was a reclusive, often wearing a veil and sleeping in a different bedroom. I read that every morning she would reportedly consult the spirits in her seance room, the thirteen Candles room, to receive instructions for the day's construction. These instructions, often cryptic and illogical, were then relayed to her foreman, who, despite their confusion, carried them out diligently. Her staff, who knew her as Mrs. Winchester, were loyal but also aware of her eccentricities. They observed her rituals, her solitary nature, and the never ending construction. They saw the house grow around them, a living, breathing, but utterly chaotic entity. Like, how do you remember which secret passage leads to another room or another part of the house and which one leads to nowhere?
Speaker C
That's what I've been trying to figure out. Because I'm like, I would get lost so easily with. Especially with. They say there's like over. Was over 100 rooms. Like, how do you not get lost?
Speaker B
Yeah, yeah. I would, I would have fallen out.
Speaker C
That I would literally forget. Like, was this the door or was this the door?
Speaker B
Really?
Speaker C
Because there's so many different rooms and doors. You would just. At one point you'd just be. It'd be like a mystery every day.
Speaker B
Yeah. Is today the day I'm gonna follow my death?
Speaker C
Pretty much dig that 15ft. Because I remember a lot of like the shows. I would watch, the paranormal shows. They would. It's scary because if you don't have your flashlight and you open that door, you can literally fall. Like I've. They showed like, you open the door and you look and there's like literally nothing. No floor, nothing. So if you don't know where you're going at night when it's dark, you're screwed.
Speaker B
Yeah, yeah. When I go there, I'm always going to keep a parachute on me.
Speaker A
I don't think it's going to open in 15.
Speaker C
I'll say. I don't think you're going to have the reaction skills to push like.
Speaker A
No, it's not like Wile E. Coyote where you walk out, you hover in the air for a split second and then you fall.
Speaker B
That's not how you fall.
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
No one learned you that Looney Tunes lied to me.
Speaker A
Oh, yeah.
Speaker B
All right. So beyond the bizarre staircases and doors, the house also boasted some remarkably advanced features for its time, juxtaposed with its chaotic design. For instance, the house had indoor plumbing and heating systems that were quite sophisticated for the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There were multiple modern bathrooms, elaborate gaslighting, and even an internal elevator system, which was a true luxury. This shows that Sarah, despite her alleged spiritual motivations, also desired modern comfort and technology. It highlights that the Perplexing dichotomy of her life. Immense wealth and access to innovation channeled through a filter of fear and superstition. The gardens surrounding the house were also meticulously maintained, a stark contrast to the internal chaos. Sarah had a passion for horticulture, and the grounds were beautiful, filled with exotic plants and intricate pathways. This suggested a desire for beauty and order in one aspect of her life, while the house itself defied all order. Now, let's talk about the alleged paranormal activity. For decades, visitors and staff alike have reported strange occurrences within the Winchester Mystery House. It's a prime location for ghost hunters and paranormal investigators, drawn by the stories of tormented souls and the house's peculiar energy. So what do people report? Visitors often claim to hear faint whispers or voices when no one else is nearby, particularly in certain rooms like Sarah's bedroom or the seance room. Sudden, unexplained drops in temperature are frequently reported, even in rooms that are otherwise warm. The sound of phantom footsteps, doors opening, closing, or objects moving on their own are common anecdotal accounts. Some visitors claim to have seen fleeting shadow figures moving in their peripheral vision, only to disappear upon direct observation. Lights flickering, cameras malfunctioning, or batteries draining quickly are sometimes reported by paranormal enthusiasts. Many visitors report feeling a presence associated with Sarah herself, particularly in her bedroom or the seance room. There are also legends of a specific spirit, a carpenter named Clyde, who worked on the house and is said to still linger. While these are largely anecdotal, the sheer volume and consistency of these reports contribute to the house's legendary status as one of America's most haunted locations. Is it the lingering energy of the spirits Sarah sought to appease? Is it the residual energy of decades of fear and obsession? Or is it simply the power of suggestion in such a unique and atmospheric place? In 1906, San Francisco earthquake played a significant role in the house's history. The massive tremor caused extensive damage, collapsing the top three stories of the mansion and trapping Sarah in her bedroom For a short time. She believed the earthquake was a sign that the spirits were angry, possibly because she had completed some rooms following the earthquake. She had large sections of the damaged house boarded up, including what was once the main entrance, and focus construction on other areas. This further contributed to the house's disorienting, disorienting layout. Sarah Winchester lived in this bizarre, ever changing mansion until her death from heart failure on September 5, 1922. At the age of 82. The constant construction finally ceased. Her will has 13 or was 13 sections long, and she left Instructions for how the house was to be managed. That's strange. I wonder specifically, what's that?
Speaker A
Like, what specifically is strange? Other than all of it.
Speaker B
Like she, she less she left such detailed instructions on how the house was to be managed that was like 13 sections long. Like I get the 13 because, you know, that's her favorite number or whatever number. But like, just having, just leaving instructions is just kind of strange, you know, like it's not strange for the story, but just in general. So. Sarah Winchester passed away in 1922. Her remains were sent back to Connecticut to be buried next to her husband and daughter. The decades of ceaseless construction finally came to an end. But the story of the Winchester Mystery House was far from over. The house was left to her niece, and her will stipulated that all her personal belongings, furniture and the vast quantities of unused building materials were to be distributed or sold. It reportedly took six large moving vans working eight hours a day for six and a half weeks to clear the house of its contents.
Speaker A
Yo.
Speaker B
Wow. The sheer volume of material Sarah had acquired over the years was astounding. Shortly after her death, the house was quickly acquired by a group of investors who recognized its unique, almost bizarre appeal. They leased it to a showman named John Brown, who immediately opened it to the public as a tourist attraction. He capitalized on the strange architecture and the story of Sarah's spiritual beliefs, marketing it as the Winchester Mystery House, a name that has stuck ever since. The house quickly became and remains a hugely popular destination. Thousands of visitors flock to San Jose each year to wander its maze like halls, marvel at its oddities, and perhaps feel a chill or two. Guided tours lead visitors through a portion of the vast structure, showcasing the famous staircases to nowhere, doors to brick walls, the secret passages, and Sarah's beloved seance room. So what are we to make of the Winchester Mystery House? There are several prevailing theories about Sarah Winchester's motivations. This is so the spirit theory. This is the one we've largely focused on. Sarah truly believed she was haunted by the spirits of those killed by Winchester rifles and built the house non stop to appease them and protect herself from their wrath. The constant construction was a spiritual mandate. Perhaps the building was a way for Sarah to cope with her profound grief. The endless project gave her a purpose, a distraction from her immense sorrow and loneliness. It was a way to channel her energy and her vast fortune into something tangible. However chaotic, the house became a physical manifestation of her internal turmoil. It's also possible Sarah suffered from some form of mental illness, perhaps ocd. Think yeah, right. Or a delusional disorder, which manifested as this insatiable need to build her intense wealth allowed her to indulge this of obsession without restraint. A less romantic theory suggests that the constant construction was a way to avoid paying taxes on her immense income. By continually pouring money into the house, she could reduce her taxable assets. While this might have been a fringe benefit, it's unlikely to be the primary motivation, given the extreme nature of the building. Sarah was clearly intelligent and interested in new technologies. While her methods were unconventional, some argue she simply loved to build and experiment with her vast wealth providing the means to indulge in this passion without conventional architectural constraints. The truth likely lies in a combination of these theories. Sarah was undoubtedly a grieving woman. Whether her spiritual beliefs were literal or a metaphor for her psychological state, they clearly drove her actions. The house itself, with its illogical design and endless additions, certainly feels like a physical representation of a mind grappling with profound loss and fear. The legacy of the Winchester Mystery House extends far beyond its physical presence. It has inspired books, documentaries, and even a Hollywood horror film. It stands as a powerful symbol of the human response to grief, wealth, and the unknown. It challenges our understanding of sanity and logic, asking us to consider what drives us when faced with unmanageable loss and overwhelming resources. It reminds us that sometimes the most profound mysteries are not found in ancient ruins or distant galaxies, but within the depths of the human heart and the very structure we build to navigate our fears and our beliefs. The Winchester Mystery House is not just a house. It's a puzzle, a psychological portrait in an enduring question mark on the American landscape. It continues to draw us in, inviting us to ponder the limits of human obsession and the thin veil between our world and whatever lies beyond. So let me ask you guys, what theory do you think? Or you could even have your own. What theory do you think she was obsessed with for building that house constantly?
Speaker C
I think it's a mixture of, like, the spirit and, like, the love of architecture. Like, I think it's a mixture.
Speaker B
Yeah. Can you explain why you feel that way?
Speaker C
Maybe. Okay, now, just because, like, the fact that she's always sleeping in another room, it's not always in the same room the whole time. Like, if she didn't really care, she would just be in one room. And also, it's just, for me, with the architect, it's like you can tell, like, different things are going on. So it's kind of like maybe she was doing a little bit experimental, like, okay, I want to try this room, but I Want to do this. I want to see what it looks like. I have all this money I can put it into and just make my own, like, my own little doll house that I live in.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ms. Lydette, I think she was smarter than the theories that are out there.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
I, I don't think it was grief.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
And that's kind of a stigma or a label that they put on a lot of women of that time is, oh, they're hysterical. Oh, they're just, you know.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
They only have one purpose in their entire life, and they, you know, they're emotionally fragile when they have something devastating happen, like, doesn't mean you don't wake up the next day. And I don't know. I think she was maybe brighter than what she gave, what history gives her credit for. So by means of spending her fortune, spending her wealth a tax haven, not getting married, giving it to a spouse. I don't know. She's like, call me crazy, I don't care, but I have 15 rooms to sleep in, and I don't have to wash the sheets.
Speaker B
This is true. One laundry is never ending.
Speaker A
Yeah, but, I mean, I'm sure she was. Still, obviously, I, I do agree with the. The spiritualism movement of that time was quite popular, especially amongst the wealthy, so it might have fed into that, but I don't think it was the grief that drove this.
Speaker B
Yeah, I, I, I definitely lean very heavily towards the whole spirit theory that for whatever reason, she thought that the people killed by the Winchester rifle were haunting her, especially with her daughter passing away at a young age and then losing her husband. Like, I could see if someone is superstitious, how you can connect the dots to that. And then on top of that, going and seeing a medium who you put a lot of faith in being this type of person tells you the, that's the reason, you know, so it's like, oh, I was right. You know, it just validates what she was already probably thinking.
Speaker A
Well, I guess I'm curious that it didn't really say how many other siblings or heirs to the Winchester fortune were there? Was she the sole heir?
Speaker B
Yeah, she was the sole heir because.
Speaker C
I think William was the only son of Oliver. Oliver.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
All right, so, but wait.
Speaker C
But she has a niece. But then again, it could be on her side and not his side.
Speaker B
Right? Right. So, yeah, I don't know. I, I, I lean heavily that way. I mean, the other ones are, are possible, but I think the most probable is just her fear of retaliation from these spirits.
Speaker A
You should get A kickstand. If you lean so heavily one way.
Speaker B
I. I do. I do have one.
Speaker C
Not that type.
Speaker B
Just. Just saying. I do. No. All right, so here are some stories from visitors who experienced firsthand the mysteries of the house. So From Reddit user lonetraveler87. While on a road trip with my cousin, we stopped in San Jose at the Winchester Mansion. Since I was the tallest person in our tour group, six foot one, I was told to be the last person in the back of the group. As we went through the home, I kept feeling compelled to rub my hands constantly. We make our way into the seance room of the home. As we were leaving through the small trap door, due to my weight, I was stuck in the door frame. Everyone else had moved on since I was last in line. I was tugging back and forth as if something was actually holding me back from going through the door. Finally, I was able to walk through the door. Later. Later on, we make our way through the room with, I believe, seven fireplaces. It was here that we were told Mrs. Winchester has arthritis real bad in her hands and other body parts. Hence why I felt compelled to rub my hands continuously. He could have left the getting stuck in the doorway part.
Speaker A
Well, it says they wanted to trap ghosts in the house.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker C
And they were leaving through a small trap door. So that makes sense that he got stuck with being a big guy.
Speaker B
I mean, I mean, yeah, because I'm.
Speaker C
Pretty sure you would get stuck.
Speaker A
Me and you, don't you want your.
Speaker C
Problems, but you through a small trap door.
Speaker A
Yeah, no, I think you would get stuck.
Speaker B
You're making me sound. Listen, I wear 36 size jeans, okay? This guy probably wears like a. Like a 60. Jesus.
Speaker C
Saying it's the Jesus. I'm saying it's a small door, it could be small.
Speaker B
I understand it's a small door, but I'm not like a huge guy.
Speaker C
Small spaces at the fake haunted places, you literally have to like, crotch down.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Crotch down.
Speaker B
Yeah, Yeah. I don't think it's crotch.
Speaker A
Shut up. Crotch down. Crouch. Crotch.
Speaker C
What is it?
Speaker A
Keep trying. Crotch.
Speaker B
Hey, hey, hey, hey. Crouch down in front. I can't see. Come on.
Speaker C
What is it? What's the word?
Speaker B
Crouch.
Speaker C
Crouch.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
There you go.
Speaker B
There you go.
Speaker A
I still like when you say crotch. It's funny.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's so much better when you say crotch.
Speaker C
I thought all he saw was crotch.
Speaker B
You know what? That kind of ties in, into our masturbation story. Like crotch down.
Speaker A
Oh, my God.
Speaker B
Oh, what's happening?
Speaker A
Oh, Jesus, my side hurts from LAUGHING.
Speaker B
All right, you're welcome. From Reddit user hitheronyan. I went there last summer. We were. We were one of the first tours of the day. So there were only four people in the guide, in the group. When we went into the basement, it was through kind of a low walled hallway, if that makes any sense. That dead ended and then you had to go left or right. Okay, listen, if you have to go left or right, it's not a dead end.
Speaker C
I know, I was about to say that. That's a T. That's not a dead end.
Speaker B
When we get to the dead end. Wrong. We headed left to the boilers or something. I looked right and saw a man pushing a wheelbarrow go around the corner down at the far end. It was darker in that area, but I figured he was a worker or something. I thought it was weird. He was working in a dark area. And I mentioned it to the guide and she said no one was down there besides us. Those are, those are fun stories.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
All right. From Reddit user Luke Block, Walker69. Of course. Okay, so on a family trip to California, we stopped by the Winchester house. I'm not going to explain the whole story here, but if you're curious about its amazing history, here's a wiki page. Okay.
Speaker A
Aww, that's nice.
Speaker B
Yeah. Right. Okay, so we were on a tour with 15 some people and I went ahead and saw what I presumed to be a worker there, someone in costume to add to the environment of the tour. But I was the only one that saw her. She looked to be about my age, so somewhere between 16 and 18, maybe wearing what I later identified as late 1800s maid outfit. @ least I think this was a while ago, and I only recently thought about it. She walked off down a hall or something and went out of sight. I later realized that I didn't see anyone else dressed up, and since I was ahead of I was the only one who saw her. I just thought about it and can't find any evidence of people working here there in costume or anything. I've tried, but can't find any info.
Speaker A
A, great accent.
Speaker B
Thank you.
Speaker A
And B, this kind of goes on. A theory that I had earlier is like, I understand that she wanted to confuse the spirits when she built the house, but do you think she trapped spirits there? Like workers got lost, died in the property. They can't. Here, board yourself up into this wall, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah, but does it work as like a. A vacuum and it sucks in and traps. Traps, traps Spirits, maybe, so they can't.
Speaker B
Escape, you know, in. Is it Hindu? I think it might be. In Hindu religion, they put pyramid shaped things in the corners of the room. And they do that because in the corners of the room is said that energy gets trapped.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And those pyramids help with the flow. It makes the energy continuously flow through so there's no trapped energy. So with these different shaped rooms that and the different stairways that go to nowhere, so there's all these different weird angles that normally isn't there that might make sense. So interesting.
Speaker A
Especially down the dead end hallway that goes right and left.
Speaker B
Right, guys, listen.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
If I ever go down a dead end hallway, I might go left, but I might go right. All right. From a Reddit response to people who work at the Winchester Mystery House. Have you ever experienced any sort of paranormal activity there? Response from a Reddit user work there as a contracted employee a few years back, I had the swing shift and some overnights when the grave called out. What does that make sense anymore?
Speaker C
Graveyard shift.
Speaker B
Oh, okay.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
This is my personal opinion. Yes, there are entities that reside here. I had a few strange instances when I knew I was the only person on the estate. Sometimes I'd be sitting in the front gardens and I'd see the gift shop. Automatic doors open and close by themselves. I was the only person on the property and nowhere near them to trigger them. Maybe a small animal, but who knows? It was just kind of creepy because it was always late at night. Some nights it sounded like there were people having conversations faintly from inside the house. I had to go upstairs and put my equipment away. It was like offices for the bosses. But there was a door in the back that opened up to the house. I would open it and peer in because your first thought is like, who the fuck is that? At 11:45pm it kind of freaked me out. I closed the shit and went back downstairs. Also, there was a framed picture of Sarah on the wall. It was a picture of her wax figure face and it was just creepy. It had cold, dead eyes that felt like they were watching you while you were upstairs. Few other stories too. Co workers in actual Winchester Mystery House employees told me stories because I'd always ask them. Another observation from my time there was how many car accidents happened right in front or within view of the estate? It was almost abnormal. Like every two weeks there was some kind of accident on Winchester Boulevard. From small fender benders to people hitting poles, but always inside of the house. Similarly, the crazies always seemed to be attracted to the house. Many a night I'd have people who were mentally lacking or having some kind of episode in the parking lot or at the front gate that faces Winchester Boulevard. Like mentally ill people screaming at the house. That should happen more than once. And it always tripped me out. I knew it could just be coincidence, but these are my lived experiences at the Winchester Mystery House. Personally, I think the estate has become. Are always, are always been some kind of vortex of spirits and entities to come and go as they please. There's a lot of energy concentrated there in that one spot. Obviously. Yes. They're overpriced with their tickets and they harp on the spooky factor to get people in the door. 90% of people won't experience anything. And I get that. This is a whole money side to it. The GM Walter was kind of an asshole. As were some of the upper management, like snobby. Same for some of the tour guides. Rich little entitled white girls who never said hi when you greeted them. That shit reminded me that it's just business now and they're exploiting it for all it's worth. But such is life. Regardless, I personally think there are definitely things that lurk there when everyone goes home in the wee hours of the night when the veil is thin, you know, these fucking rich little entitled white girls. Like he could have left that out. Right? I mean, it feels like people that kind of overshare it. And I love it. Yeah. All right.
Speaker C
I do.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Think that the accidents are just people looking at the house. It's just rubbernecking possibly.
Speaker C
Like how when there's an accident around, everyone goes slow because they want to.
Speaker A
Look at the accident. Yeah. And then.
Speaker C
Cause they were trying to watch the accident.
Speaker A
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B
Yeah. That. That makes perfect sense.
Speaker A
I make a lot of sense. I do. You'll see.
Speaker C
You'll see.
Speaker B
From Reddit user independent aspect2 last year in October, my friend and I went to the Winchester house in San Jose for a night flashlight tour. Oh, that would be dangerous.
Speaker A
Very.
Speaker B
Since it was during Halloween season, they were playing a lot of very obviously fake background noises, such as footsteps on the top floor or voices of kids, etc. So my friend, who's a skeptic, and I at first were like, oh, how spooky. Sarcastically. And we really didn't expect to experience anything. But as soon as we got halfway through the tour of the house around the second floor, we started noticing that the temperature in certain areas or rooms would drastically change. Even though we didn't notice any fans nearby, we still didn't Think much of it at this point. And we were just casually looking with our flashlights into the rooms for this tour. All the lights were completely off. So everyone just has their flashlights on, pointing wherever they want to see. Now, here's where it gets creepy. At some point, we're in this room with a lot of glass doors and windows looking into exhibition rooms that are closed off or locked. There's. There's no one.
Speaker A
Not those kind of exhibition rooms.
Speaker B
I mean, let's see if he paints that picture or not. There is no one inside here, not even the workers. I was looking straight into this one room that had glass windows surrounding it. I was pointing my flashlight straight, looking around the room. When I turned to the left to this small corner that was surrounded by glass. And I'm like one foot away from it when I notice a woman feverishly masturbating in that corner.
Speaker C
Really?
Speaker B
I'm just joking.
Speaker A
Stop it.
Speaker B
I'm just joking. That's how it says.
Speaker A
That's not what it said. No. That was nice, though.
Speaker B
Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker A
If I wasn't paying attention then, I am now, right?
Speaker B
All right. So one foot away from it when I noticed a dark shadow right behind the glass. The more I stare at it, the more I realize it's like a shadowy face. It was like I was in a trance. I was frozen in place. And through the other side of the glass, this old wrinkly face of a woman was staring right back at me. She looked like she was wearing a black cloth over her head. I can see wrinkles on the face, and her eyes were just dark and piercing. It was like we were just staring deeply at each other. I can't explain it very well, but it wasn't solid like a regular person. It was dark and almost like a shadow, except a lot more clear. I also only noticed a face, not a body. A few seconds later, I snap out of it and I scream my friend's name and run towards her. When I told her what happened, we both go back to the place where I saw the face, and we look around the room to see if there are any workers there, if there were any projects around that could have explained what I saw. But the room was empty. And if we've ever been. I'm sorry, if you've ever been to that house. You know, a lot of these random corners and spaces in certain rooms are barely big enough to fit a human. I was shaking so much after that, my anxiety was getting pretty bad. I just knew that I saw. I just knew what I saw and knew there was no way. It was just my mind playing tricks on me. As we continued the tour, I started looking at the pictures of the house and people back then. And the more you look at these pictures, you notice super creepy and demonic looking faces in them. That just completely gave me the creeps. Maybe I was just tripping about the photos, I don't know. After that, I started taking pictures with flash to see if I could catch anything. And my pictures were mostly coming out blurry. But I did catch this one picture that I edited and it literally looked like the shape of a woman in a dress. I also got a live photo that shows an orb moving across the camera. I will try to attach the pictures below. When I showed my boyfriend the pictures the next day, him being a huge skeptic, said it was probably just dust or a coincidence, which I can totally agree with. Maybe it was just nothing. But looking back, all these creepy occurrences couldn't have just been a coincidence. Especially that face. I remembered all her features so clearly. The wrinkles and the cold eyes. No way. That was just a random shadow.
Speaker A
My only complaint is I hate the willy nilly throwing out of demonic.
Speaker B
I agree.
Speaker A
I hate when people just. When something scares them, they just say it's demonic.
Speaker C
That's like the first thing that they don't think of.
Speaker B
Yes, I agree. So we have an audio here. Let me get it queued up. All right, here we go. Me and Lee were standing right here.
Speaker A
And we heard a growl.
Speaker C
Can't hear it.
Speaker B
If there was something. What's it first?
Speaker C
You can't hear it in a second. We probably should just talk what the video is about before playing it so people aren't confused.
Speaker B
Okay. So go ahead, talk about it. Yeah.
Speaker C
So this video is I found on YouTube. It's like the Boxel Literature Brothers. I don't even know if I said that last name right in this video is they captured growling and some footsteps at the Winchester house.
Speaker A
So.
Speaker B
Yeah. So can you see my screen?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker B
Okay, I'm going to go ahead. Let me lower the volume a little bit. All right.
Speaker A
All right.
Speaker B
I'm going to go ahead and start it over. Me and Lee were standing right here.
Speaker A
Nope. And we heard a growl.
Speaker B
You guys can't hear it?
Speaker A
No, no. We can just affix it. We can.
Speaker B
Hold on. Let's see. Okay. I think I got it fixed. So take three. Here we go. Me and Lee were standing right here.
Speaker A
And we heard a growl.
Speaker B
Lee asked if there was something here to do it again. It growled and Then we asked did it sound like that? That's just got really cold. Let's go find that grand ballroom. There was something over here. Where? That's gotta be one of us. Yeah. If that wasn't one of us, that was pretty legit.
Speaker A
Something just pushed my back.
Speaker B
I want to hear that growl again. Don't you?
Speaker A
Go for it.
Speaker B
Yeah. And then we asked did it sound like that? That's it. One more time. That's just so cool. And then we asked did it sound like that? That's pretty neat.
Speaker C
Yeah. Then like the footsteps, they were so clear.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker C
That's one thing I always wish like I would experience going somewhere is the footsteps.
Speaker A
Steps.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker C
Like, I just want to like hear it in person.
Speaker A
Except for when you're in the basement and there's no light and there's spiderwebs.
Speaker B
That's true.
Speaker C
That too.
Speaker B
So.
Speaker C
And then like at the end when he was like, someone pushed my bag.
Speaker B
Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker C
It's weird because like that was like really the only. Because a lot of the stuff I found, audio wise, it was more like through the ovilus. Which to me it's like, eh. I like the disembodied stuff. Like the stuff that you don't catch through like.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker C
A computer saying computerish words. Like.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker A
So.
Speaker B
Right. Lynette, write that down. Computerish.
Speaker A
Computerish. Noted.
Speaker B
Computerish words. All right.
Speaker C
Oh man.
Speaker B
So the Winchester Mystery House remains one of America's most fascinating landmarks, blending history, mystery and legend under one sprawling roof. Whether viewed as the eccentric creation of a grieving widow or as a labyrinth built to confuse restless spirits, the mansion continues to draw visitors into its maze of staircases, hidden doors and endless rooms. Its story embodies both the sorrow and imagination of Sarah Winchester, leaving behind a legacy that blurs the line between fact and folklore. To this day, the house stands not just as an architectural oddity, but as a symbol of how grief, superstition and mystery can shape a legend that endures for generations. And that, my friends, is the Winchester Mystery Mystery House.
Speaker C
When are we going?
Speaker B
Yeah, we should definitely start making plans for next year.
Speaker C
Hey, Winchester Mystery House, if you're listening, give us free tickets to come to there and we will host our podcast.
Speaker B
Yeah. If you can get us a all expenses paid trip to your place to let us investigate, we will post it on our website and on our podcast.
Speaker A
Yep. Do you think they're listening let you do overnight?
Speaker C
Probably not.
Speaker B
You know, that's a great question. They might because those guys seem like it was an overnight.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's true. You know, they do. And they should also post overnight there.
Speaker B
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's like, you know, $3,000, something ridiculous.
Speaker A
Well, good thing this podcast makes.
Speaker B
That's right. That's right. We. We made. We made $5 yesterday.
Speaker A
Yeah, buddy. Just 10,000 more episodes.
Speaker B
Thank you to our tens of listeners. Yeah, no, I, I, I really think that house. You know what Lynette said, Trapping spirits. Maybe it's just trapping energies, which, you know, spirits are energies, but, like, it's just so weird that all that architectural weirdness in just one house.
Speaker A
I know. Even if it's not haunted, I just want to go and, like, walk through the halls like a kid. Feeling like I'm in Harry Potter or something like that.
Speaker B
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A
Hey, is that, like, my second Harry Potter reference tonight?
Speaker B
I think so.
Speaker A
Sweet. Yep. First morning Myrtle.
Speaker B
Ms. Spree. What did you. Were you looking something up?
Speaker A
I was trying to, but I can't.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.
Speaker B
No, that's all right. Do you guys have anything else to add?
Speaker A
Oh, hang on. Okay, I look in, I look in. Hang on, I look in. What are you looking for? Looking for love in all the wrong places.
Speaker B
I'm about to pee my pants.
Speaker A
Never mind. Okay, we're good.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
All right. So you've been listening, too?
Speaker B
Yeah. Ms. Lynette, do you have anything else to add?
Speaker A
Dad, if I talk slow, I'm just.
Speaker B
Going to cut you off.
Speaker A
Of water trickling. Okay. I can't do it anymore. I hate talking slow. Okay, go.
Speaker B
I am the master of my domain. I can control it. All right, well, thank you for listening, everyone. Like, share, follow, and one more time. My name is Frank.
Speaker A
I'm Bri. My name is Lynette. And you've been listening to Fringe Beyond Limits.
Speaker B
Sam.